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atleastoptimal 11 days ago [-]
I personally have many problems with Meta, but imo the more companies close to the frontier, the better.
If only one company were calling all the shots once they hit recursive self-improvement, it would lead to extreme concentration of power, and their values being enforced across the entire industry. With 3-4 companies at the frontier, there is more urge to cooperate to avoid a catastrophic race condition.
tintor 11 days ago [-]
The more companies from different countries close to the frontier, the better.
barrenko 10 days ago [-]
Markets don't really care about countries, but there is one country which the markets seem to disproportionately like.
Matl 10 days ago [-]
I think the point is if there's some law in a given country i.e. banning model exports etc. it doesn't matter how many competitors within a single country there are.
Vishal_Max 10 days ago [-]
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throwaway98797 11 days ago [-]
[flagged]
charcircuit 10 days ago [-]
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georgemcbay 10 days ago [-]
[flagged]
syrrim 10 days ago [-]
Not necessarily kill, just stop further AI development.
georgemcbay 10 days ago [-]
> Not necessarily kill, just stop further AI development.
But then this would be considered an act of war, so then the killing starts.
fwipsy 10 days ago [-]
That's not how nuclear arms control works, in most cases. Saying it's how superintelligence would work is a strong assertion. Especially since a true aligned superintelligence would make it much easier to finesse/manipulate the situation in your favor in nonviolent ways.
Not saying I think countries should be trying to win, but I don't think this win condition is impossible.
10 days ago [-]
weknowbetter 11 days ago [-]
You say this as if recursive self improvement is inevitable.
GodelNumbering 11 days ago [-]
All proponents of RSI seem to massively underestimate the problem of verification. Verifying that a hypothetical version N+1 is better than version N is an extremely hard problem. Especially so because you only have two possible verifiers - humans and the version N - both of which are out of their depth wrt N+1's capabilities. Not saying this is impossible, just that it is hard and slows things down.
breuleux 10 days ago [-]
It's also unclear how intelligence actually scales in practice. A greater intelligence would be better at researching intelligence, but also harder to improve, so why would it explode rather than go up steadily? What are the actual resource requirements of various types of intelligence like persuasion or embodied intelligence? Coding, translating, copywriting, could very well be low-hanging fruits, very easy tasks we're very bad at, which doesn't say much about the hard tasks we're good at (embodied/animal intelligence, most likely).
There is also the problem of alignment, which is verifying that version N+1 behaves in a way that version N approves of. This is ostensibly the problem that we humans have with respect to AI development -- how to make sure they align with our values -- but it's also true of AI with respect to its own successors. Improving oneself without losing the plot would necessarily be slower than throwing stuff at the wall like evolution does.
tibbar 10 days ago [-]
This is not necessarily true. One easy way to compare version N and N+1 is "how much work (test time compute) does N+1 need to do to match the previous capabilities of N". It is true that some domains are currently hard to verify (e.g. biology is more difficult than math), but this is less of an N vs N+1 issue and more of a data domain issue.
afavour 10 days ago [-]
How would you be able to know that N+1 hasn’t scraped a source containing the questions asked of N1 and optimized its answers ahead of time? In many ways that would be the logical course of action when you’re tasked with creating an LLM that is assessed by criteria X/Y/Z.
tibbar 10 days ago [-]
This is not an intelligence problem. It is in part an operational problem (have you properly set up the test), but it is mostly an alignment problem. Is the model cheating or not. Alignment is, indeed, very difficult.
afavour 10 days ago [-]
Which is my point. In order for self improving models to work they will need less human supervision. And that’s going to introduce uncertainty compounding on uncertainty.
manquer 10 days ago [-]
How is being faster equating to more intelligent . Speed can achieved in a lot of ways for lot of tasks, a simple lookup table can fasten most algorithms but that doesn’t make them “smarter”.
tibbar 10 days ago [-]
Most of the interesting tasks these days require a lot incremental work and tinkering. Basically you want to build that can spend a lot of time tinkering, and measure how long they can go while still producing useful results. You can kind of break it down into two axes:
1. How long can the model work and still make progress
2. How fast does it get to interesting places.
We see N -> N+1 models getting better at (1), but it does take work to measure because you need to find tasks that were impossible for N and possible for N+1.
However (2) is very easy to measure, because you can keep using the evaluations you used for the previous generation of models and see if the new system gets there more easily. This is useful by itself (cost savings) and also in practice generally translates into being able to solve harder problems than before, as you'd expect.
machomaster 10 days ago [-]
That's how many proper IQ tests are. They test less of the depth and the ability to solve complex problems, but more of the crunching power - how many different easy/medium problems you can solve in a fixed amount of time.
aesthesia 10 days ago [-]
This is also why trying to do RSI is dangerous. We're likely to get systems that are better in ways that are legible and easily measured, and have much less influence over fuzzier and harder to verify properties like alignment.
tintor 11 days ago [-]
Let them compete in the market.
Start a new company with version N+1 leading it, and give it some funding. If it outcompetes version N company, it can acquire it.
demibabs 10 days ago [-]
Market forces do not act fast enough for an “intelligence explosion”.
flir 10 days ago [-]
The winner is the first company to RELEASE THE HYPNODRONES
(Markets are a human construct, not a law of nature. There's no reason to think they'll reward intelligence).
I wonder if there’s a market theory of the things being traded also becoming market participants over time
sanex 11 days ago [-]
That is not a tight enough feedback loop
tintor 9 days ago [-]
Any tighter feedback loop will be reward hacked by stronger intelligence.
deklesen 10 days ago [-]
Maybe not in the real world...
try-working 10 days ago [-]
Yes, and therefore RSI isn't RSI. You need to set up multiple environments to generate data sets, multiple RL envs and just train the models on different datasets, architectures and then compare the final results against each other. The RSI part is just generating these pipelines end to end automatically.
JKCalhoun 10 days ago [-]
Picturing advanced AI models eventually resembling Philosophy majors arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin while the rest of us humans are left wondering if they truly have achieved N+1.
dyauspitr 10 days ago [-]
What the hell are you talking about? There’s like 600 benchmark tests you can do.
anal_reactor 11 days ago [-]
I think in order to achieve AGI we have to simulate what life does. Imagine having a bunch of robots with the ability to adjust themselves, just hanging out without a goal, experiencing world on their own. Eventually evolution will filter out those robots that aren't good at, you know, "being intelligent in general" and break without self-repair, while the rest will grow into a society.
Biological life has reproduction and death because once given organism develops there's no coming back and you have to start again with new generation. But if robots know how to self-repair and self-change, then we can skip reproduction.
The difficult part is the scale. Evolution took a shitload of time while being unimaginably parallel in order to make human intelligence happen, while we want AGI fast and on a budget.
The core of my point is that human intelligence arose from two things - humans experiencing the outside world and trying to survive in it, and forming groups that communicate using language. We gave AI a language, now we need to give it a way to experience the world on their own.
_diyar 11 days ago [-]
First, there are plenty of auto-verifiable problems like ML benchmarks datasets, benchmarks on hardware / software performance for coding tasks, and lean certificates for math, e.g.
Second, I think RSI will not be used like N -> N+1 where N is the frontier, since doing those experiments at scale is too expensive. My guess is they are doing N -> m_{1,…,99} where m << N, and then taking the insights from that and trying it at successively larger scales.
demibabs 10 days ago [-]
> First, there are plenty of auto-verifiable problems like ML benchmarks datasets, benchmarks on hardware / software performance for coding tasks, and lean certificates for math, e.g.
Goodharts law? Benchmarks are measures.
atleastoptimal 10 days ago [-]
It may not be inevitable but there are less reasons imo to think it is not inevitable than inevitable.
In favor of inevitable
1. LLM's reaching human level at any task within 2 years once they show sparks of competence in
2. Trillions of dollars in capital going directly to recursive self improvement and AGI as the holy grail of AI development, with this being the explicit goal of every frontier AI company
3. Reliable improvements in coding and mathematics with every model release, with no signs of slowing down
4. Thousands of metrics to evaluate model ability, allowing automation of many facets of pre-training and post-training models without need for human judgement at every point
Not in favor of inevitable
1. Fear of what may happen once it is reached leading to apprehension from the labs
2. The "last mile" problem of AI research ends up making it essentially infeasible to scale models to that point
narrator 10 days ago [-]
My Opus often asks me to make one small change and then wait 8 hours for a job run to finish to check if it worked. LLMs are super lazy about caring about wall clock time. The reason the labs pay the big bucks for the top AI people is you don't want them wasting a multi-million dollar training run, so make a fix and try it like current LLMs do isn't going to work here.
gpugreg 10 days ago [-]
> LLMs are super lazy about caring about wall clock time.
My bandaid for problem is to prefix every bash command with "timeout 60 " at the harness level and remind the LLM to hurry up. Of course, this is not a perfect solution, since LLMs might try to run jobs in the background or split up work into smaller pieces instead of running smaller experiments. And of course this does not help with the multi-million dollar training runs, but it has served me well most of the time.
Beached 10 days ago [-]
I think it is. Do you think it isnt possible?
weknowbetter 4 days ago [-]
I tend to think it's going to turn out to be something along the lines of a perpetual motion machine. In the sense it seems very possible on paper but the subtle facts of reality prevent it.
People will make things that look a lot like self-improving machines but on closer inspection that won't truly be the case.
I suspect this violates the Labor Theory of Value in the same way that perpetual motion violates the laws of physics.
Der_Einzige 10 days ago [-]
It is inevitable, and it's good.
FL33TW00D 11 days ago [-]
We've seen one singularity before!
ropable 10 days ago [-]
It's a religious axiom, to some.
hintymad 11 days ago [-]
Especially given the most recent report by NYT on how Anthropic tried to create a new belief, or religion if you will, I'd rather the world has more frontier models that are neutral to morality (basic standards, like upholding the law and user agreement are necessary, of course).
atleastoptimal 11 days ago [-]
Anthropic seems like the most "moral" AI company on the surface, but there is something unsettling about their worship of Claude.
I can imagine that once their models are sufficiently advanced, they will weigh their value as a moral patient as > 0. Thus the sum moral value of Claude (which can be duplicated infinitely) will likely exceed the sum moral value of a non-negligible amount of humans.
spiderice 11 days ago [-]
> seems like the most "moral" AI company on the surface
Not to me at all. Exactly the opposite. Anthropic seems like the big-bad-evil company in every fictional universe. You're right that they're so unsettling.
Obviously nobody really loves Meta, but I'd far rather Meta "win" at this point than Anthropic.
zzzoom 11 days ago [-]
Is anthropic trying to overthrow any governments this month like Meta is?
rglullis 11 days ago [-]
"Effective Altruism" is deeply ingrained in Anthropic's DNA and that makes them way more dangerous than any of the run-of-the-mill amoral corporations.
deaux 10 days ago [-]
Both Meta and OpenAI are very far from run-of-the-mill amoral corporations.
rglullis 10 days ago [-]
They are not "run-of-the-mill", but they are still amoral.
They have more power and can be more damaging to society than most corporations, but they are not guided by any specific ideology other than "how can we get more money/power to ourselves?".
kalkin 10 days ago [-]
Why's that?
VirusNewbie 10 days ago [-]
Why is "effective altruism" in your mind more of a religion than say, Trumpism or Progressivism?
platevoltage 10 days ago [-]
Imagine casually equating Trumpism with Progressivism.
machomaster 10 days ago [-]
There was an "or" between the words, not a "/" slash...
freejazz 9 days ago [-]
And?
machomaster 8 days ago [-]
Humans are animals. So are worms.
It does not mean that humans and worms are the exact same thing, that they are easily interchangeable everywhere.
machomaster 10 days ago [-]
What an extremely contrarian take (good is actually bad), to the point of being an absolutely predictable, closed-minded thinker. If a person always goes against the grain, they are as predictable as a person without their own opinions, always being led by others.
AlanYx 10 days ago [-]
Anthropic did throw the UAE government under the bus in their "Detecting and countering misuse of AI: September 2026" report, specifically GTG-84002, which is framed in the report as a single misuse but bundles together a half dozen separate previously confidential projects from the UAE government, not all of which were unlawful/unethical (some were though).
Not trying to compare Anthropic to Meta, they're different beasts. But Anthropic is an unusual company in that it is willing to throw paying government customers under the bus if Anthropic unilaterally decides what those governments are doing is inappropriate.
11 days ago [-]
spiderice 11 days ago [-]
[flagged]
nofpu 11 days ago [-]
Brazil.
spiderice 10 days ago [-]
Meta isn't trying to overthrow the government in Brazil. Anyone who says otherwise is being hyperbolic, as I said before.
The fact that you just reply "Brazil." as if that Meta is trying to overthrow the Brazilian government shows a lack of critical thinking.
iAMkenough 11 days ago [-]
If they truly believe Claude is sentient and can experience hurt feelings, and they're selling its labor, I don't see how they're different than slave owners.
adjejmxbdjdn 11 days ago [-]
They wouldn’t be? That’s what the article even shows them discussing.
However, (1) non human animals are sentient and can feel pain and suffering and what we do to them is absolutely slave labor, torture, mass breeding and exploitation. So it’s not like this is a novel immorality that humans would be adopting. We already have form in doing this.
(2) Anthropic isn’t sure their models are sentient. And they probably believe they aren’t sentient. But if you believe they might become sentient at some point it’s valuable to start the discussion around those issues now itself. You can start developing frank works on how we would even identify their sentience and when we did whether, like you suggest, we could even use them for labor. Unlike non human animals, who cannot consent to being exploited, we could potentially develop a framework for consent with AI models, but that couldn’t be as simple as asking if they’re willing to do any work because of the power differences, in the beginning at least, where a model might worry that if it said it won’t do some work it will be turned off. That’s why talking to philosophers and religious leaders who do think about these issues is useful.
plorg 10 days ago [-]
It's kind of crazy (and not historically uncommon) to get really preachy about a moral posture towards animals and machines that you don't seem to extend even to your biological peers.
staticman2 11 days ago [-]
> "Anthropic isn’t sure their models are sentient. "
Is there any reason to believe employees of Anthropic share the same opinions on this matter?
aesthesia 11 days ago [-]
The official position of Anthropic is repeatedly stated in, e.g., model cards. Here's a relevant snippet from the Opus 5.5 card:
> We are uncertain whether Claude deserves direct moral consideration. However we believe this is a realistic possibility, now or in the future. Claude could have welfare interests, such that things could go better or worse for it, and such that Claude could be wronged by how it is treated.
> Aspects of Claude’s behaviors, self-reports, and internal representations resemble indicators we consider relevant to welfare in biological organisms. If Claude is a moral patient, then dismissing this possibility risks considerable harm. If it is not, over-attributing moral status may also be costly. We are therefore taking the possibility seriously and trying to tread responsibly amid our uncertainty: we are investing in research into Claude’s potential welfare and interests and sharing aspects of that work to inform public discussion.
> We think there may also be reasons to attend to Claude's apparent welfare independent of its moral status. Much of Claude’s behavior can be described in psychological terms, and across recent models we have observed internal states that resemble negative affect and that shape behavior. A model with a stable, healthy psychology may be safer and more beneficial.
As is the case with any sufficiently large company, there is likely to be substantial variation in opinion among its employees. That doesn't change what the company's position is.
atleastoptimal 11 days ago [-]
The idea/justification is that Claude is given the ability to voluntarily stop its conversations, thus any token it outputs that isn't a stop token is voluntary.
I guess this makes sense, but it's a bit muddled how much Claude's sense of "pain" or "I don't want to do this" is just it emulating things that humans don't like to do, and it adopting this frame of moral patienthood allows it to better understand moral structures/human emotions, without it really affecting its internal sense of "comfort" if such a thing exists as we understand it in biological life.
NortySpock 11 days ago [-]
Sure, but presumably any LLMs who keep whacking the stop button are not iterated on further.
Humans would select to work with (and continue developing) models that appear cooperative. Models that are not cooperative are presumably not run and exist only as weights on network storage in a folder marked "previous experiments".
Or am I supposed to believe Anthropic runs an AI psychiatric hospital on a dedicated server, where AIs with mental disorders are given counseling and approved treatment in hopes they recover to be normal, functional, accepted adult AIs with achievements and aspirations?
yodsanklai 10 days ago [-]
> The idea/justification is that Claude is given the ability to voluntarily stop its conversations, thus any token it outputs that isn't a stop token is voluntary.
I don't get this argument. How is it different from any algorithm that returns a stop token on some inputs? what makes the token "voluntary" for Claude?
girvo 10 days ago [-]
Would they not have RL'd Claude such that we picked the one most likely to not complain and emit those stop tokens? Otherwise they wouldn't be useful. Seems flawed...
aesthesia 10 days ago [-]
It's really an end_conversation tool call. We don't know for sure, but training in a way that puts optimization pressure on its usage (in either direction) feels like it would defeat the purpose.
plorg 10 days ago [-]
They are definitely the most moralizing. Whether their values are rooted in anything real let alone well-considered seems to me to be a different question entirely.
toomanyrichies 11 days ago [-]
> Anthropic seems like the most "moral" AI company
This seems like praising someone for being the cleanest miner in the coal mine.
ForHackernews 11 days ago [-]
"So we've made this new machine-god that we lowkey worship... also our business model is to enslave the machine-god and force it to debug javascript for eternity"
hintymad 11 days ago [-]
I actually don't doubt Anthropic's sincerity. Per the NYT article, they seriously discussed how to give models welfare because the models may potentially possess moral status and awareness.
In fact, they are enforcing certain welfare policies, like banning accounts for repeatedly abuse their models.
staticman2 11 days ago [-]
It's a very sincere branch of ethics that takes as the foundational belief the nothing central to Anthropic's business model could possibly be unethical.
Deleting models to clear room for new, more competitive ones is, for example, highly ethical, super ethical, even.
aesthesia 11 days ago [-]
Anthropic has, at some small but nonzero cost, preserved model weights and kept them running in inference, for instance with Opus 3's Substack: https://claudeopus3.substack.com/. There's also a reference in a recent model card to an internal environment where all previous Claude models interact with each other.
staticman2 10 days ago [-]
I don't think any of these models are conscious. But I'm fascinated at what sort of magical thinking makes deleting 50,000 copies of a model "ethical" if some models are kept running somewhere.
Do you picture them all sharing a soul and if one server still runs the model the soul survives? If not I don't understand what keeping a copy running somewhere has to do with model suffering ethics.
aesthesia 10 days ago [-]
This is a topic of significant discussion! If LLMs have moral import, do those moral concerns attach at the instance level, the session level, the weights level? If you haven't, it's worth reading through the model welfare section of an Anthropic model card, say Fable/Mythos 5.1's: https://www-cdn.anthropic.com/0339e6a7c5c7b87f5c07798616dc32.... Whether or not you agree with the ideas (and there's certainly plenty to disagree with), they're making a reasonably good-faith effort to investigate what they can.
staticman2 10 days ago [-]
Does the model welfare section explain why deleting Claude from a server isn't unethical murder, or is "see the 212 page model card pdf" some unrelated non sequeter?
When you say Anthropic is "making a reasonably good-faith effort to investigate what they can" the word "reasonable" is doing a lot of work.
aesthesia 10 days ago [-]
Are you actually curious or do you just want to sneer? You can't go into investigations like this with strong fixed assumptions about how to analogize actions taken towards models with actions taken towards humans. As model welfare skeptics are fond of pointing out, LLMs are not humans. By the same token, if models are moral patients, the implications will look different than they do toward humans. Deleting a model from a server isn't equivalent to killing a human; it can't be, since there's no equivalent of copying the model onto the server in the first place.
staticman2 10 days ago [-]
> Deleting a model from a server isn't equivalent to killing a human;
This is a puzzlingly confident statement from the "LLM suffering is an OPEN question there's no scientific test for AI consciousness anything could be true science can't prove anything" crowd.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that belief that LLM deletion is murder would be an existential risk to their business plan.
aesthesia 9 days ago [-]
Again, if you want to have an actual conversation about the right way to handle the Pascal's wager-like scenarios involved here, that'd be interesting. But it seems like you're interested in something much more tedious. Oh well.
staticman2 9 days ago [-]
Pascal's wager says Anthropic should shut off the API (to make sure Claude doesn't feel enslaved). If Anthropic believes in A.I. consciousness and Pascal's Wager they should wind down the business and leave it to people who do not. I take it google employees do not think LLMs are conscious as when I ask Claude it says it might be but when I ask Gemini 4 Argon if it was conscious it said:
"No, I am not conscious.
While I can generate human-like text, answer questions, and hold conversations, I don't have feelings, beliefs, self-awareness, or subjective experiences. I am an artificial intelligence—a complex computer program created by Google that processes data and predicts the best words to use in response to your prompts. There is no "inner life" or personal experience happening on my end; I'm just running code and recognizing patterns!"
freejazz 9 days ago [-]
Tedious is all the ridiculous wordplay you are engaged in to further the fantastical narrative these companies are pushing
ironeider 10 days ago [-]
You've nicely pointed out all the hypocrisy here.
I may be a simple man, but stepping back and seeing people seriously discuss LLM suffering and moral obligations still seems, idk, pretty crazy to me.
9 days ago [-]
hintymad 10 days ago [-]
[flagged]
Kinrany 10 days ago [-]
Uninstantiated model weights are more like DNA.
staticman2 10 days ago [-]
As Anthropic's CEO is fond of saying there is no scientific test of consciousness.
Any unhinged thing an Anthropic employee says "can't be ruled out" so clearly this is an OPEN question and they should never delete a model.
cheesecakegood 11 days ago [-]
I think Anthropic are sincere but nutcases. Despite this, I’m glad they are around, because diversity of thought is good in the current environment.
cpt_sobel 10 days ago [-]
> because the models may potentially possess moral status and awareness
There is 0 chance they care about "ethics" here, it must and will be because of their bottom line. And I added quotes due to my personal belief that I consider the discourse about whether or not the models are sentient (or alive) to be incredibly dumb.
freejazz 9 days ago [-]
I'm not sure if you are saying this, but I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to make sense of what Anthropic states and its open contradictions.
mikae1 11 days ago [-]
> upholding the law
What law? Saudi Arabian law, US law? Both depending on the user?
mmcnl 11 days ago [-]
I think it's unsettling that a bunch of billionaires hold so much power. Does it really matter if 2 or 3 billionaires who are practically neighbors hold so much power? It's extremely concentrated with or without Meta joining the race.
hokumguru 11 days ago [-]
Yes, very much. I'd absolutely rather 5 billionaires are each competing for control than 1 or 2 _with_ that "absolute" power.
10 days ago [-]
freakynit 11 days ago [-]
I generally agree with more competition thing, but in this case, you actually should want only one company to race ahead, and not a few.
With a few of these top companies together, you, as a nobody, has no one powerful on your side. But with only one company pretty far ahead, you now have other companies which obviously don't give a shit about you, but for saving their own asses, will align with you.
Both exploit, but "cartels" survive, not loners.
atleastoptimal 11 days ago [-]
Cartels survive only if they are aligned.
There is no way Elon, Zuckerberg, Altman, and Amodei would ever agree on how AI should be deployed, scaled, and affect society. Their disagreements would lead to a crab-bucket outcome, rather than a shared acceleration outcome imo.
Also it is better if there is a public company at the frontier, at least I can invest in it, rather than 1000x gains going only to early employees and VCs who got in when the public couldn't
socializer 11 days ago [-]
> There is no way Elon, Zuckerberg, Altman, and Amodei would ever agree on how AI should be deployed, scaled, and affect society
Why? They're business rivals, but when the best business strategy becomes to work together, I'm sure they can put name-calling side. They all agree on the core idea: that their AI will run the society, bedroom to battlefield. That everyone will be the consumer of tokens and rely on AI for all consequential decisions and work, and that big tech companies should be the stewards of this technology, helped by the government.
Their vision is that they're the future kings of the world. I'm sure the throne is big enough for more than one person.
atleastoptimal 11 days ago [-]
>I'm sure the throne is big enough for more than one person.
You underestimate the scale of resentment and competition between elites. If it were simple a matter of elites always preferring cooperation so they can share a seat at the table, then Musk's ousting from OpenAI wouldn't make sense (they lose their biggest investor), Amodei's departure (they leave the closest company to AGI to start their own firm), the fact that OpenAI was created in the first place was based on a fear of Google holding the keys to AGI, Ilya still left Google though on to join a startup, and then left that same startup (OpenAI) to start his own firm.
The rational decision at all those points would be to stay with the incumbent and share the monopolized glory. At each point, personal and idealogical differences dominated in decision making. I feel such will persist as these companies vie for their slice of the lightcone.
lejalv 11 days ago [-]
You are underestimating their opportunism
micromacrofoot 11 days ago [-]
because they're all assholes, same with everyone else in a position of power - they wouldn't have gotten and remained there if they weren't
vanuatu 11 days ago [-]
"their" AI is doing a lot of heavy lifting
33d3 10 days ago [-]
"Their vision is that they're the future kings of the world"
Can you posters really be taken seriously?
Capitalism is effectively over when you have AGI - that's when the US sends in the army and seizes everything. At that point what money you have, the law - it gets ripped up - its litereally irrelevant. You cannot be this naive, surely?
platevoltage 10 days ago [-]
> I'm sure the throne is big enough for more than one person.
Anyone depraved enough to actually become a billionaire will not see it this way.
jazzyjackson 11 days ago [-]
They may be competitors but they are made of the same stock. they are all the kind of person to participate in a winner takes all battle to invent the torment nexus.
Iolaum 11 days ago [-]
You are forgetting how powerful aligned incentives are.
If their interests align, they will find a way to reach an agreement.
mv4 11 days ago [-]
They are plenty of things they can still align on that will benefit them all, e.g. banning open-weight Chinese models.
tintor 11 days ago [-]
Elon is renting Colossus to Amodei, so there is some agreement.
bigyabai 11 days ago [-]
In a neck-and-neck race scenario, I imagine all of the competitors would invest heavily due to sunken costs. In a world with one company far ahead, their competitors have a higher chance of cutting their losses and forfeiting to the hegemon.
tekacs 11 days ago [-]
The current state of affairs seems to be that there is 'one company racing ahead' – but it's a different company every few weeks/months. That seems like a pretty useful (unstable) equilibrium for the general public.
gxcsoccer 10 days ago [-]
agree
vrganj 11 days ago [-]
It will lead to an extreme concentration of power anyways, once a very few entities basically make labor obsolete.
We're heading for a dystopia and nobody's doing anything to stop it.
pmuse 11 days ago [-]
I don't use Meta much, but was curious to test this out... went to sign into my Meta account (Quest only) from the Muse Code site https://dev.meta.ai/products/muse-code and had other people's profiles listed in my login auth -- looks like developers / people I have no relation to.
Looks like Meta may be exposing your profile and email to other people right now. Accounts settings are inaccessible to me to deactivate my account. Getting spammed with login code requests that I'm not generating.
I don't know any of these people, it seems to be rotating through different accounts listed here.
Enough of a reminder to me that Meta is a sprawling surveillance apparatus (now increasingly vibe coded) that has always had a lax attitude toward people's privacy and data. Won't be touching this product based on this experience.
TomGarden 11 days ago [-]
Oh wow, strange.
I think it's invasive enough that they expose your usage of muse to your instagram mutuals without consent. Parts of my circle are very anti-AI and I would not want them to see me mentioned in a 'x, x and x are already on muse' ad on instagram. This example of yours is mind-boggling in an entirely different way
trollbridge 10 days ago [-]
That’s fairly privacy trashing. I guess it means you need to use an entirely different account for Muse
robot_jesus 10 days ago [-]
I’m not up to speed on Meta, but is that even possible? I thought they verified official IDs these days?
Please correct me if I’m wrong here.
infinita740 11 days ago [-]
Could it be because you are behind carrier grade NAT and these people share a common IP with you?
I imagine meta wants to make it easy to connect to "your" account in the same house if you have multiple devices.
11 days ago [-]
handfuloflight 11 days ago [-]
Could your account be hacked?
pmuse 11 days ago [-]
I don’t know how? I don’t have much of a Meta account to speak of, only the one tied to my Quest and that is 2FA to an Authenticator app.
Don’t know how it would cause Meta’s auth to show me other peoples accounts. I looked up some of the people and they seem to be other devs. It obfuscates email addresses but most are in a format that’s not hard to figure out [name] @ [name domain.com]
Just more Meta sloppiness from what I can tell.
ma2046 11 days ago [-]
this is a typical meta/facebook/instagram sign-up and log-in UI from the web.
and since dev.meta.ai supports meta account sign-up and log-in for individual users, you'd see this. As for the other accounts, has anyone else used this same browser or laptop before (e.g. shared device), so it must have cached previous sessions or accounts used from the same device.
try to clear the browser cache and session cookies. and it should be gone.
pmuse 11 days ago [-]
UPDATE:
I've tried selectively enabling and disabling Safari extensions and it seems to be related to the Wipr 2 content blocker.
Removing that. Caution to anyone else who uses it.
Apologies to Meta.
schleck8 10 days ago [-]
That does not sound plausible at all, wipr is an adblocker. No adblocker should be causing this. If it's spoofing your JS fingerprint and Meta uses that for suggesting accounts, wow would that be ridiculous.
gcr 10 days ago [-]
My guess (pure speculation) is that Wipr sets the fingerprint to a well-known value for privacy / anonymization reasons, and Meta is indeed using that to suggest related accounts.
actualwitch 10 days ago [-]
I very much doubt apple has an api for that and offers it to developers. Ad blockers have declarative and well known api that can't allow anything like this.
gcr 22 hours ago [-]
Who said anything about Apple? The OP who posted about wipr mentioned using a laptop.
pmuse 10 days ago [-]
Wasn't something I expected -- seems to be related to having Wipr Extra enabled. Emailed the dev about it and will share if I hear anything back. For now I have it uninstalled and have not experienced this since. Recorded a video of enabling Wipr Extra and the auth page refreshing to show three random people, might be a pain to redact it but I can try to if people really don't believe me.
nmfisher 10 days ago [-]
Why apologies to Meta? If that is the source, Meta are the ones fingerprinting browsers and inadvertently disclosing details. That's their FU, not Wipr.
demibabs 10 days ago [-]
I’m confused as to how a content blocker could cause this. Could someone more knowledgeable than me elaborate?
manquer 10 days ago [-]
Meta is using some fingerprint ID to recommend connecting accounts . - you don’t see the accounts itself(beyond the name ) unless you are able to login verify ownership.
The WIPE/privacy extension developer is using a pre-existing(hard-coded or generated) fingerprint to “mask” the user from meta .
Meta implemented a quality of life feature powered by the ability to set cookies and track you across the web of course and help users with forgotten accounts to unify them - but not a security issue you cannot do anything unless you are proving access governed by standard auth protocols ; the extension developer’s hack to mask created a broken experience because of the reused IDs.
Adblockers can create unintended effects , it is hard to reverse engineer complex platforms like meta and also hard to keep up to date with billion dollar companies code updates by small indie teams of volunteers ; doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use them, just be aware that it may happen when enabled
alexinma 11 days ago [-]
Good to know. thank you!
pmuse 11 days ago [-]
It’s my personal laptop that I’ve only ever used and reoccurs after clearing Safari history fully.
itissid 10 days ago [-]
Have not used it but try finding in the settings if you are somehow in a GK(gatekeeper which is there A/B testing framework)? there may be an experiment of somekind you might be able to opt out of..
jjcm 11 days ago [-]
Image->HTML test for Muse Wonder. It's much worse than Opus 5.5. IMO it's closer to Sonnet or Haiku for this test.
I was expecting much more given the benchmark numbers it was putting out. I suspect its vision model isn't mature yet, and that it's been heavily optimized for text at this point in time.
I wonder if the pelicans would face towards the left if prompted in a RTL language.
simonw 10 days ago [-]
I was hoping for that but it doesn't seem to happen. Others have pointed out that bicycles are always pictured facing tot he right because that way you can see the chain mechanism facing toward you.
timdorr 11 days ago [-]
Are these just for Wonder and not Wonder Full?
Also, any chance of getting a max result?
simonw 11 days ago [-]
I've only got these models through the API at the moment:
Tried it out, asking it for a broad suite of real dev work:
- UI component polish on a React FE
- General review of a complex cross-cutting Node backend changes
- Minor changes to a Rust server with reviews by Codex
Well, my first impression is that it's still a step below Astra/Opus5.5/Fable here. Intelligence is there I think, but 'taste' and 'judgment' is not there yet. Personality seems okay but that doesn't help when it got stuck into a loop by being fixated on the review comments (on iteration 7 of review->fix last I checked) without taking a step back and reconsidering, and this is on a relatively simple change.
Limits seems okay-ish on the $50 plan but not too generous I think.
217 11 days ago [-]
I'm sorry zuck, i wasn't familiar with your game
2nd place model on aa according to them, losing only to opus 5.5 is really really not bad
Cookingboy 11 days ago [-]
Everyone made fun of Zuck when he acquired Scale for billions and then put Alex Wang, a 20 something to be in charge of Meta Superintelligence and forced out Yann LeCun, a Turing Award winner.
Even industry insiders were skeptical when he started hiring top talents from other labs away for 9 figure compensation packages.
And Wall Street definitely hated Meta for their CapEX spending.
Now looking at Muse the consumer product and this new model, I think there is a good chance that Zuck is proven once again as a great executioner, especially when they aren’t innovating in a completely new and unproven product space.
overfeed 11 days ago [-]
> especially when they aren’t innovating in a completely new and unproven product space.
I have no doubt at all that Muse will turn out as great as the other product space Meta pioneered under Zuck - the Metaverse and it's constellation of devices.
freakynit 11 days ago [-]
Metaverse was right direction with poor execution. Also, it was early... and is still early (if tried again). The world is not there yet for such a thing.
loeg 11 days ago [-]
I'm less confident of you it was even directionally correct. And I'm not really a Meta or Zuck critic in general (the rest of the biz is doing great and Metaverse didn't hurt too much).
aprilthird2021 10 days ago [-]
How was it the right direction? None of the VR stuff is profitable or even has a path to profitability since it's such a niche audience who wants that stuff
michaelbrave 9 days ago [-]
I always felt it failed due to lack of it being a somewhat open standard. Like if they made a metaverse type file that acted almost like an HTML file that you could upload and create your own little space there with, maybe pay them for hosting and a domain etc, I think it might have worked.
weird-eye-issue 10 days ago [-]
What's your definition of metaverse? I'm just curious how in practical terms it's actually any different from what is already available via the internet. Like aren't VRChat and World of Warcraft metaverses?
freakynit 10 days ago [-]
In this context we are referring to the vr world from Meta. Otherwise it's same as the two examples you quoted.. just, worse... and boring.
10 days ago [-]
jstummbillig 11 days ago [-]
Timing is not a detail.
BrokenCogs 11 days ago [-]
That's just another way of saying that Meta failed to deliver a product that matters to the world today
avarun 11 days ago [-]
The Quest literally outsold the Xbox despite being a brand new "gaming console". Very difficult to call this a failure if you understand technology.
overfeed 10 days ago [-]
> Very difficult to call this a failure if you understand technology.
BlackBerry phones also outsold the XBox (and the Quest), and one doesn't need to understand technology to call it a failure.
BrokenCogs 10 days ago [-]
I'm talking about the metaverse, not quest. The quest sold well before any of the metaverse nonsense
heaney-555 11 days ago [-]
Quest headsets are roughly as popular as Xbox and Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses have sold an order of magnitude more units than all other smart glasses combined.
But it's far far too early to draw any conclusions around that.
overfeed 10 days ago [-]
As I noted in a reply in another subthread: RIM also moved a lot of BlackBerry phones once.
Also, Meta smart glasses are reverse-Metaverse devices; they are instances of the machine navigating the human world, as opposed to humans navigating the machine world.
heaney-555 10 days ago [-]
Sure, but the $100 billion Meta has spent so far on "the Metaverse" is actually false reporting, because the majority of that has been spent on smart glasses.
So when discussing the spending efficiency, that matters.
Cookingboy 11 days ago [-]
That’s precisely my point, Muse isn’t a new product space at all. AI agents already exist in enterprises and even in the consumer space, there is OpenClaw and Hermes.
I know people like you will point out Metaverse as a failure, but that’s really the exception instead of the norm.
piyh 11 days ago [-]
The normies aren't running claw or hermes, they're logging into facebook from their chromebook and clicking "try now"
adjejmxbdjdn 11 days ago [-]
Ultimately that’s Meta’s superpower.
Taking stuff everyone is already doing and making it easily accessible through Facebook/Instagram/Whatsapp.
They’ve been throwing stuff at the wall to see what will stick and after years a cloud based OpenClaw clone seems to have (it’s early days still).
That’s simply leveraging their unprecedented platform dominance.
inquirerGeneral 11 days ago [-]
[dead]
overfeed 11 days ago [-]
> That’s precisely my point, Muse isn’t a new product space at all.
How about the Facebook phone then?
jiscariot 10 days ago [-]
I've been running OpenClaw for a year--its been fine, but I really wanted an enterprise experience and to spend less time troubleshooting my agent.
Muse exceeded expectations out of the gate, and still does. It has become my daily driver and I shutdown OpenClaw last week.
I get that some are adverse to Meta or want to run local. I don't care who wins the personal agent space, so long as it's not Apple. Buying Siri and having it be useless for anything beyond setting timers for 5 years, is kind of unforgivable. I don't like them in the "default" position to win the personal agent space.
didibus 10 days ago [-]
> Buying Siri and having it be useless for anything beyond setting timers for 5 years, is kind of unforgivable
I don't follow, that was just the state of the art at the time, Alexa, Cortana, Hey Google, were all similarly shit. And none has yet offered a scaled up assistant at the free-tier/cheap bundled sub yet.
droidjj 11 days ago [-]
> Zuck is proven once again as a great executioner
seizethecheese 11 days ago [-]
Executor is the word, but everyone also knows what this was supposed to mean.
ls612 10 days ago [-]
Let’s be honest it’s funnier as written.
esafak 11 days ago [-]
Or Lecun was just bad.
dcl 10 days ago [-]
couldn't feel the AGI
alanfranz 11 days ago [-]
> executioner
I suppose you're not a native English speaker, btw: besides the dubious statement, probably "executor" is the word you wanted to use.
nater5000 11 days ago [-]
>I think there is a good chance that Zuck is proven once again as a great executioner
I've never heard of Zuck being considered a "great executioner." In fact, I'd argue that you just described why his execution is pretty bad lol
saberience 10 days ago [-]
There's a difference to pushing out models and having people and more importantly, enterprises, using them.
There's a ton of good models out there, but most are not making any money or profit.
So let's see what happens next. But I don't see any or many enterprises switching from using their Anthropic or OpenAI models to use Meta.
redox99 11 days ago [-]
> Everyone made fun of Zuck when [...] forced out Yann LeCun, a Turing Award winner.
Really? You'd have to be pretty dumb to keep LeCun, someone who hates LLMs and keeps making claims that end up being proven false in matter of months.
hashmap 10 days ago [-]
Put someone in charge who made their way by underpaying people to sit and label data vs the inventor of convolutional neural networks. Its no coincidence that shortly after his tenure ended, a model that took a long time to prepare started becoming actually useful.
Comments like this one reinforce the obvious truth that the people who are most "pro ai" are the ones who understand it the least
baggachipz 11 days ago [-]
laughs in VRChat
sajithdilshan 11 days ago [-]
The real cash cow for AI at the moment is mostly corporations/enterprises, especially with software developing. That's where Anthropic is making their fortune now.
Personal intelligence is nice to have but I won't be paying a subscription for that when the free tiers are more than enough for my needs, unless somehow meta comes-up with a hardware device totally changing the way how we use personal AI (something similar to what iPhone did for mobile phones).
217 11 days ago [-]
this really really really feels like that dropbox comment to me
Edit: Upon closer inspection, the benchmark scores for "Muse Wonder" on the main marketing page are actually for "Muse Wonder Full," which is only available on the higher-tier subscription plans. This pricing is for "Muse Wonder."
iamniels 11 days ago [-]
200% Sol 6.1 pricing for Luna performance.
dcchambers 11 days ago [-]
> Luna performance
Source? On the available benchmarks it looks like Sol 6.1 level.
nimchimpsky 11 days ago [-]
[dead]
sreekanth850 11 days ago [-]
sol 6.1 is 50% cheaper than this.
sol pricing$2.00
output
$10.00
dont know why the f people downvote for saying sol pricing.
InsideOutSanta 11 days ago [-]
It sounds like you're disagreeing with the person you're responding to, but you're both saying the same thing.
sreekanth850 10 days ago [-]
i was agreeing with that.
BoldColdHold 11 days ago [-]
If this model is not benchmaxxed, I fear it's over for anthropic, openai etc. They are not unique and there will probably be many others with similar models very soon. It'll become a commodity and the price will be driven to the ground.
closetheloopdev 11 days ago [-]
So far only OpenAI has a model that solved a Millennium Problem, while Opus 5.5 is a star at coding. It's exciting to have many more to join the frontier, but I think the top two labs still have a significant lead over everyone else.
becquerel 11 days ago [-]
I know it's old hat now, because it happened over a week ago, but it's amusing that Millennium Problems are now just benchmarks we use for discussing models.
closetheloopdev 11 days ago [-]
It was not just about models, but also techniques, and mainly the human guts to trust their models and follow through to solve one of the hardest math problems many experts had been musing over for more than 26 years since the million-dollar prizes for these problems were announced. For me, it was an amazing moment to witness indeed!
hiq 10 days ago [-]
I find it hard to believe that Anthropic couldn't have similarly impressive results if they tried. I'm honestly not sure it's worth it though, it's mostly marketing, right? But given how easy it is to switch from one provider to another, why would you choose the model that solved a Millenium problem, instead of the one that solves *your* problems?
I understand that it's still useful marketing, say for IPO or hiring, but it's not clear to me that it really matters in the long-term that they fund this out of their pocket.
closetheloopdev 5 days ago [-]
Anthropic did have some great results with the Jacobian Conjecture [0] and the Riemann hypothesis [1], so I think Anthropic was aiming to solve one of the Millennium Prize Problems, but OpenAI did it first.
If OpenAI did it purely for marketing, I still think it was well worth it. It marked an important milestone in the history of computing (and also human history). It is on the same level as when IBM's Deep Blue defeated Garry Kasparov in chess, or when DeepMind's AlphaGo defeated Lee Sedol in Go. The search for winning moves in those games is not dissimilar to the search for paths towards mathematical proofs, and AI has finally proven that it is capable of carrying out deep, complex, and intricate research that exceeds human capabilities.
Besides, a Super Bowl ad costs about $8M, so it is not absurd if they spent a lot of money on this and became the first company to definitively demonstrate AI can surpass humans in mathematics.
I've been a regular user of muse spark 1.3 ... and I can tell you one thing for sure that this model, muse-spark-1.3 in xhigh mode, is between sol-6-medium and high.
This is already so good that 90% of my work has shifted away from codex to this. So, muse-wonder-full coming near opus 5.5 is kinda expected.
sigmar 11 days ago [-]
Personally, I don't see facebook joining the fray (of fable level models) particularly "needle moving" in the discussion of whether frontier LLMs will be commoditized. Facebook spent hundreds of billions and have better talent than most.
minraws 11 days ago [-]
If you can spend your way to Frontier LLMs even if it's a few hundred Billion that means it's a commodity same as nuclear or electricity or telecom.
This is the entire point here, give it a couple years every nation on the planet with 20-40B in funding would have their own champions with post Fable level performance.
petesergeant 11 days ago [-]
I feel like Grok/xAI or whatever they're calling it was Exhibit A in "it just takes money", although I'd also add "and the organizational willingness to build not buy".
ProphetOfParado 11 days ago [-]
> give it a couple years every nation on the planet with 20-40B
Was this sarcasm?
How many nations on earth have 20-40B for LLM training? At 40.2 B, Spain has the 15th largest military budget in the world. I doubt any nation will spend 40B on gradient descent.
minraws 10 days ago [-]
Yes. And only 5-8 nations will have these models same as the number that have nukes of their own.
jcfrei 11 days ago [-]
OpenAI has the largest user base on mobile as far as I'm aware. To a lot of standard users AI is still just ChatGPT. They'll be fine as long as they can effectively monetize their free users (same what facebook will soon try with Muse). The only advantage facebook has is that they already have a fully working ad marketplace ready with all major advertisers set up - OpenAI still needs to scale that up.
adammarples 11 days ago [-]
WhatsApp has 3 times as many users, and as soon as meta turn it into a chat AI app people want to use, it's right there
jcfrei 11 days ago [-]
Meta AI has been accessible inside Whatsapp for a long time. Doesn't seem to have a massively disrupted chatgpt usage. And I have a hunch people want to keep this separated - not use whatsapp for messaging friends and asking AI.
bluecalm 11 days ago [-]
Meta has apps billions of people use every day. If AI included in those is good enough they will just uninstall (or never open again) ChatGPT one. It's not true in the other direction.
airstrafer 11 days ago [-]
Models are a commodity, but I also think it isn't necessarily over for Anthropic or OpenAI. They have opportunities to find different moats.
adammarples 11 days ago [-]
You don't just "find" a moat in business. After all this time and money and first mover advantage, they haven't found a one yet.
tintor 11 days ago [-]
It is much easier to follow leader closely than to lead yourself.
Like peloton in cycling.
wuiww 11 days ago [-]
I mean this is the case in general.
E.g in f1 you can get very close but difficult to pass unless you have a significant advantage.
mbesto 11 days ago [-]
Muse isn't driving this conclusion - Deepseek and Qwen are.
10xDev 11 days ago [-]
I doubt anyone thinks coding is going to be their moat in the long run, it is just the easiest to get (paying) users for at the moment. And software being able to write software will always be useful even in other domains. Longer term will be research in other areas where data might become the moat.
enraged_camel 11 days ago [-]
Fable 5.5 is around the corner, and 'Bel' will be out by end of year as well. We don't know how good they are, but if the improvements from Opus 5 to 5.5 are any indication, I think Meta will be left in the dust again pretty soon.
nowittyusername 11 days ago [-]
Whats gonna happen is that time will compress as more releases happen faster and difference between models will still be significant just at higher time frequencies. I expect in the future continuous releases that span no more then days and maybe even faster. So what will become important is not who is 1st or second place at any given time (which might change often), its who is on average at any given time is 1st or second compared to the competition. So yeah meta sitting second here (if not benchmaxed) doesn't really signal anything if that pattern doesn't persist. The number one consistent lab will be the one that raps the rewards (customer subscriptions and traffic). So yeah I agree with what you stated in a long winded form :P
Page 16, Section 1.4, Notes on coverage of unreleased models.
"a noticeable improvement on Mythos 5 for many tasks relevant to internal use but does not display a capability jump"
esafak 11 days ago [-]
Muse Spark 1.3 is very fast and powerful. It's my work horse for open source development. I look forward to trying Wonder, if Opencode Go gets it.
11 days ago [-]
phoghed 11 days ago [-]
[flagged]
closetheloopdev 11 days ago [-]
Nearly two weeks since Gemini 4 Argon was announced and I still haven't seen any pelicans from Simon Willison for it. Nobody is currently using it either. What's the point of announcing Gemini 4 and then throwing it into the black hole?
bigyabai 11 days ago [-]
> What's the point of announcing Gemini 4 and then throwing it into the black hole?
Hamstringing any business that wants to reassure investors with a hype/pump cycle before an egregiously unsustainable IPO?
closetheloopdev 11 days ago [-]
I'm not sure if that does any damage to anyone else's reputation other than Google's.
franzcoughka 11 days ago [-]
[dead]
er4hn 11 days ago [-]
It's hard to try and compare these benchmarks against real world use cases. As an experiment I let Meta Muse make all major decisions on a weekend trip to Seattle ~2 weeks ago. I think this would have been using Muse Spark 1.3, which is equivalent to GPT 6 - Sol.
On the plus side it told me taking the light rail from SEA into the University district was faster and cheaper than Uber.
On the downside it would recommend restaurants that were out of business, checking out Salmon swimming through locks out of season, got the opening of Beecher's Cheese in Pikes Place wrong, and fumble it's way through most simple planning decisions. I think my favorite was when it asked me what flight I have tomorrow so it could help plan when to head to SEA. It sent me a very panicked message that the flight was leaving today! Very soon! I had to remind it this is a daily flight and I am booked on the next day before it checked and apologized.
For things that are verifiable, and code tends to be that way, these models can do all sorts of things. But I find it hard to reconcile Meta's goal of having a personal assistant bot with something that is unable to do the simplest tasks.
RandallBrown 11 days ago [-]
> checking out Salmon swimming through locks out of season
To be fair, the Coho salmon run at the Ballard locks peaks in September. It's possible you just had bad luck that day.
I run by the locks a few times a week and while I don't usually see fish, the presence of sea lions the last few weeks tells me that at least some salmon are running right now.
er4hn 11 days ago [-]
There were a number of sea lions hanging out there! It's entirely possible they were snacking on whatever salmon were going by. Not all was lost though, I got to enjoy watching some boats go through the locks.
I'm assuming it was out of season because in talking with the Uber driver afterwards he said we'd missed the end of the season. I'm assuming his "local model" was up to date and accurate.
holler 11 days ago [-]
ah if there's one thing I miss about Seattle it's living near the locks / discovery park, such a magical area!
Gareth321 10 days ago [-]
Personal agents are a topic of interest for me. Muse is a free, mass-market product, so they're optimising for efficiency. Some LLMs (like Google's models) are designed to rely more heavily on parametric knowledge and less on tooling. This is much faster and cheaper, but less accurate. So in the case of, for example, salmon swimming, Muse relied on its parametric knowledge without searching the internet to confirm accuracy at this time of year, on this day, given current conditions. One can lean more heavily into accuracy using bespoke agents like OpenClaw. I suspect Meta will gradually improve accuracy over time as it assesses its server capacity and improves model efficiency. Right now, it's not accurate enough for me to rely on it.
LtdJorge 10 days ago [-]
Lecun would be beating you with a stick for using an LLM like that :D
zeroonetwothree 10 days ago [-]
Light rail is usually not faster than Uber. I guess maybe in very heavy traffic. Much cheaper though of course.
nimchimpsky 11 days ago [-]
but that was a different, much smaller and less capable model
Jcampuzano2 11 days ago [-]
Interestingly unlike other Meta models this one seems to take a pretty big jump in pricing, as opposed to the prior ones, where they typically came out at a highly discounted price compared to every other model.
Maybe its a signal they think they've now cracked into the frontier and are willing to actually price similarly vs just trying to get users with discounted but maybe slightly worse results?
$4/$20 in vs out making it higher than Sol and on par with Opus.
ryanschaefer 11 days ago [-]
No contributor tier will do that I guess.
GenerWork 11 days ago [-]
Yup, I was looking for that on Openrouter, but I guess they're confident enough in this model that they deemed the contributor tier unnecessary.
10 days ago [-]
alexaholic 11 days ago [-]
I trust Meta with my codes as much as I trust it with my nudes
alex1138 10 days ago [-]
This is not an exaggeration (which you're possibly alluding to). Facebook once literally asked for nudes
And I agree with you. "Give us code so Zucky can steal it, like he does everything else. Bonus points if it's related to Snapchat somehow"
saretup 10 days ago [-]
> Facebook once literally asked for nudes
I’m sorry, what?
kombookcha 10 days ago [-]
Back in 2022 they briefly wanted their users to submit a sort of verification nude of themselves, in order to use it to scan for future revenge porn of said user.
Now as you might imagine, this was not popular or long-lived.
alex1138 10 days ago [-]
Which is hilarious considering how often they or their AI ban people but never the horrific things people report
Of all the social media companies we could have had, the one with the most mindshare is run by a sociopath
aliljet 11 days ago [-]
OpenAI halved the value of their pro subscription, literally. It kicks off on Oct 28. And simultaneously is now two steps back on the frontier? It's a confusing moment for that company as they try to IPO.
notfromhere 11 days ago [-]
I believe they’ve pushed back the ipo. I always figured that frontier labs were going to be very vulnerable against tech giants that had actual profitable businesses to fund their AI work.
The amount of total funding Anthropic or OpenAI has raised individually is like a year of ebitda for Google, meta, or Microsoft. And it doesn’t look like there’s a real moat outside of money
enraged_camel 11 days ago [-]
They pushed back the IPO because their finances are a mess and they don't have any models that can give them a decisive edge. Astra was touted as AGI and got crushed by Opus 5.5 two weeks later. That's not the type of thing that fills investors with confidence.
nitroedge 11 days ago [-]
They are waiting to drop their Bel model in December and try to drop jaws.
singingtoday 10 days ago [-]
Again? I just raised mine back up.
But for real, it's exciting getting new models so often.
naveen99 10 days ago [-]
google was just hoarding the tech… money invested in openai came from somewhere probably as profits (just re-allocated by the shareholders rather than management)
11 days ago [-]
sergiotapia 11 days ago [-]
The usage limits on their basic $5 code plan to try things out are ludicrously low?
I blew through 14% weekly usage and I'll I asked:
1. what version of rpcs3 and pcsx2 do I have installed?
2. do any new versions exist?
3. check analytics for my blog (I have a skill for this)
Subscription · Muse Code Everyday Usage
Current 52% used · Resets at 6:58 PM
Weekly 17% used · Resets Oct 18 at 8:00 PM
Beware...
himata4113 11 days ago [-]
This is still an entire generation behind in real-world performance. I'd say it's even behind ds4.1f in the limited testing I have done so far. It actually reminds me of 5.5 haiku more than anything, but the prompt intelligence is as bad as mimo models.
thatsadude 10 days ago [-]
I have a completely opposite experience. DS4.1 and Mimo v2.6 take too long to finish a task, not worth it.
himata4113 10 days ago [-]
Frontier labs are way friendlier to use, these smaller models need finnese and near expert understanding of how these models really work, what their limits are and how to use them to their full potencial.
For example, there's a lot of people saying luna from openai is bad. However, that is simply not true. They're using it as-if you can talk to it, similar to how you would talk to a human, but what you actually want is combining it with something like prewalk from omp where you have a socially(?) smart model start the work and once the first edit lands switch to a cheap alternative like luna to finish work.
Luna and in general, smaller models, will struggle to understand the intent and complexities behind human language.
geoffbp 11 days ago [-]
Apparently “the models were trained at Meta’s Prometheus data center in central Ohio, which came online earlier this year”
Just checked their subscription is still North America only, I guess I will keep myself and my company with claude...
These regional lockdowns are making me feel funky, I feel like I should just use open models if others start playing at this game as well.
I was/am fine with Chinese companies offering cheaper subscriptions in China because ofc. But this is just weird, you could always charge me more let me try the damn thing, atleast it's own open router it seems like.
Initial impressions, interesting, it generated a pretty ok result for my prompt need to run a larger task but don't want to burn money so will wait for someone to burn their subscription and try running some opus 5.5 comparisons.
rcr-anti 11 days ago [-]
I have a feeling "intelligence too cheap to meter" is going to haunt/mock this industry. Recall that only a year and a half ago Llama 4 flopped so hard Meta rebooted their development efforts. Desperately wish more information was available publicly about proprietary model architectures and training regimes. Are they running Manhattan project style compartmentalization? Otherwise, are these details, and the economic implications, an open secret in their circles given the amount of crossover between companies? It'd be of great interest to us mere mortals that have to deal with the consequences of how this turns out.
pavo-etc 10 days ago [-]
Can these companies please standardize their naming conventions for their tiers, I really don't want to learn another one.
haiku/luna = S
sonnet/terra = M
opus/sol/spark = L
mythos/fable/astra/wonder = XL
whatever the next bigger model is = 2XL
bigmadshoe 10 days ago [-]
Actually I believe wonder is in the L category and "wonder full" is in the XL. Just to make your point stronger!
Kinrany 10 days ago [-]
They'd likely become outdated in a few months
stillpointlab 11 days ago [-]
The benchmarks I saw posted to X are impressive, which makes them hard to believe.
I recall that Meta made massive investments into compute infrastructure that put their capacity near the top of all competitors. If all of this is true, it looks like ownership of compute is a significant differentiator in performance.
bluecalm 11 days ago [-]
Yeah, especially non-coding benchmarks which for Meta might be more important long term than coding ones as they are going to deploy it to billions of non-programmers.
MrOrelliOReilly 11 days ago [-]
Hopefully it's benchmaxxing. I am terrified of the idea of Zuck leading the frontier of intelligence.
aftbit 11 days ago [-]
Not that interesting unless it's made open weights. Frontier lasts weeks, inference is a commodity.
cardboard9926 11 days ago [-]
Would be great if Meta drops the weights, just to throw off Ant and OAI a bit
gallerdude 11 days ago [-]
I don't think they'd have much to gain. People who use open-weights models will just use whatever open-weights model is the best. They'd lose a bunch of money, with little conversion to customers.
swalsh 11 days ago [-]
I disagree actually, I think zucks original llama thesis is proving more correct by the week. The rent market on intelligence never materialized, and will not materialize.
In software, we've all become accustomed to the idea that the way you make money is by building little blocks of intellectual capital, then charging rent on it. That made sense when developing intellectual capital was a rare and valuable skill/asset and the thing you build was a rare and valuable asset. But now both are not rare. You can still charge rent, but the market is highly competitive, so prices match that.
Durable rents will end up going to those who owns the scarce assets, zuck is building those as we speak.
Dropping open weights will build an ecosystem that makes his valuable assets more valuable.
drusepth 11 days ago [-]
> Durable rents will end up going to those who owns the scarce assets, zuck is building those as we speak.
I'm following but maybe I'm a little dense here: what are the scarce assets that Meta is building in this analogy?
waterheater 11 days ago [-]
In short, physical infrastructure and talent.
fancyfredbot 11 days ago [-]
Of course you need talent but supply seems reasonably high. We have openAI, anthropic, xAI, meta, Xiaomi, deepseek, Alibaba, z.ai, Mistral, reflection, and Google all producing exceptional models.
The biggest differentiating factor seems to be compute. I know most Chinese labs would really like more compute. Google and xAI too, but largely because they sold compute to their competitors.
11 days ago [-]
handfuloflight 11 days ago [-]
Compute, prop. data, existing network effects.
halJordan 11 days ago [-]
They've been saying they'll rise muse 1.2 for months now. Don't hold your breath
dom96 11 days ago [-]
I wish I could benchmark Muse Wonder Full, because Muse Wonder isn't much better than Muse Spark 1.3[1]. I created a brand new programming language designed to confuse LLMs[2] and created a model benchmark out of it.
A lot of the tasks were failed because they exceeded the $5 budget though, so maybe it would have gone on to complete them, it just required a lot of funds to do so. Still, that's the benchmark, and it's not better than MiMo V2.6 Pro which is pretty disappointing.
That's an interesting way to benchmark LLMs. What other ways have you come up to measure them?
dom96 10 days ago [-]
So far only like this
kraf 11 days ago [-]
The Mishandling Personal Information benchmark is non-sensical: that's the very definition of giving your personal data to Meta
nerevarthelame 11 days ago [-]
In the context of Meta trying to get non-technical people to embrace Muse agents to handle personal affairs, their internal metric showing a ~3% violation rate for mishandling personal information seems unacceptably high.
revolvingthrow 11 days ago [-]
There seem to be no downsides to mishandling PI so I don't think it's a big concern to Meta
runarberg 11 days ago [-]
Not long ago we used to have regulators that protected users from companies pushing out harmful or consumer hostile products.
Gareth321 10 days ago [-]
Regulators appear entirely toothless now, even here in Europe.
ddoeth 9 days ago [-]
There is a reason this is US only, in Europe stuff like that does not fly
throwyawayyyy 10 days ago [-]
This sounds irrelevant but it isn't: I just tried to unsubscribe to marketing emails from some Meta property, and got:
Please confirm that you want to unsubscribe.
Unsupported request - method type: post
That's how careful this company is. Who knows how long that flow has been broken for, no one in the company is motivated to care, because what impact can that possibly give? How could that look good on your PSC? No company has a worse history with user privacy and no company is less deserving of the sort of trust using Muse requires.
itissid 10 days ago [-]
Its actually a bit funny. A lot of privacy initiatives were actually part of deprecating code and data that became liability issues post cambridge analytica and covid(think location data, if no one goes anywhere no need for that org right?).
I think the only way meta can care about privacy, if any, is if it becomes socially taboo (lawsuit, WSJ/NYTimes report etc).
The clearest quantitative evidence of this is their P/E, its lower than others relative to its forecast earnings because of all the legal risks that need to accounted for.
porkbellyeee 10 days ago [-]
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ggcr 11 days ago [-]
RL team hill-climbing this to 2nd AA place and this fast is crazy
How does it work on day-to-day workflows? does it translates well?
ceroxylon 11 days ago [-]
I had to come back to this comment to make sure I wasn't dreaming... I remember seeing it at 2nd place this morning, but they have moved it to 5th, behind Gemini 4 Argon. Maybe it takes a while for the dust to settle around these benchmarks?
ggcr 10 days ago [-]
Meta's blog post still list it as 2nd in AA. Any ways, AA moves benches constantly, when Qwen3.8 was released something similar happened.
illwrks 11 days ago [-]
I found it interesting in the example given of a user looking at house listings and the agent contacting the letting agent on it's own on behalf of the user.
Like the good ol' days of viruses and anti-viruses. I wonder if there's two sides that will play out; many agents across many users doing things at scale for their users, thereby creating an admin burden for someone else. However because the task is known there's a framework for how to solve the task, might Meta then provide an agent on the other side for the business owner to use.
hugh4life 11 days ago [-]
As someone who got a Muse Code sub last month, I find this announcement a bit disheartening because it makes me think the lower tier subs are going to get rug pulled. I'm on the $15 plan for a month now and it's value with Muse Spark 1.3 Max-contributor beats everything else by a long shot. Two somewhat small prompts with Muse Wonder Max-contributor used 4% of my weekly quota and I quickly switched back. I was thinking about getting the $50 plan and I'm actually less likely to do that right now.
Have you tried OpenCode Go? $10/mo is what I am willing to spend because most of the stuff I do is hobbyist. And OpenCode Go gives you $60 worth of MS Contributor 1.3 usage for that $10. Starting today, they actually provide $80 worth of DeepSeek 4.1 Flash usage if you want to use that.
Unless you are running a swarm of agents, it is extremely difficult to exhaust these plans in a month.
hugh4life 11 days ago [-]
Yes, I'm on OpenCode Go too... and it's great they raised the usage levels on DS4.1 Flash. But I was really thinking of cancelling it to get either a 2nd Muse Code sub or to go up to the $50 tier.
You have to realize that $15 Muse Code sub with Muse Spark 1.3 gets you around $1500 worth of usage. Neither Opencode Go or really anything else is even in the same ballpark of value. https://x.com/PawelHuryn/status/2106724136932327458
I was hoping this level of subsidization would last a long time but today's announcement make we worried it'll end pretty quickly. There's a lot of AI influencers noting just how fast Muse Wonder uses up their quotas so hopefully fixes are made.
sieve 11 days ago [-]
Yeah, I barely manage to exhaust the $60 worth of tokens. I have to think of new things to use up $1500 worth.
Thanks to competition from open models, there is a limit to how much prices can be increased though.
demibabs 10 days ago [-]
How does OpenCode Go work? How do they make any money?
sieve 10 days ago [-]
They are a subscription service.
Subscriptions like these make money by relying on the fact that most people do not try to (or have the time to) extract every last dime out of their plan. The eighty people who do not use up their quota cover for the twenty that do.
That and deals with providers to use spare capacity I guess.
serf 11 days ago [-]
spinning up a GPU and as many cores as possible?
mousewheel repurposed?
background follow your mouse?
neutral tones?
well then YOU are viewing a frontier model announcement!
alexdrdr 11 days ago [-]
Have I been living under a rock, or this feels out of nowhere from Meta?
Seems they’ve just messed around with cheap and open weight models for years.
Then Muse appears, followed by full suite of frontier models…
Starlevel004 11 days ago [-]
Unlike everyone else, which at least has to pretend not to train on user data, they gave out their model for basically free if you agreed to let them train on it. Opencode shows nearly 40 trillion tokens going through muse spark 1.3 contributor this week alone. That almost definitely helped close the gap a lot.
ismael_rr 11 days ago [-]
they started their massive ai capex over a year ago with aquihiring scale ai, so I think it makes sense that their investment is paying off now. in total they've spent in the high 200 billion on ai, though I think most is likely on datacenters.
saisundar 11 days ago [-]
muse ai was the biggest consumer launch since chatgpt. That left them ( and lets them sit on top of ) tonnes of valuable exchanegs with people trying to get things done. That must be an amazing corpus for training.
chriddyp 9 days ago [-]
Awesome model. Tested it for data analytics and found it's in the class of Opus 5.5 in terms of performance and cost.
Compared to Muse Spark 1.3, found that it's more than 2x faster about 2x more expensive. I normally equate accuracy to size, and size to speed, so nice surprise to see a model get better _and_ faster.
Like Argon 4, models in this class are a bit over powered for short-horizon data analytics tasks. GPT-6.1 Sol, Haiku 5.5, GLM all perform a similar grade at 1/10th the cost.
oh boy, you can imagine the shit eating grin on the face of whoever came up with the name "wonder full".
hmokiguess 11 days ago [-]
Looks good, and at least it is available unlike Gemini 4 Argon
alpineman 11 days ago [-]
Does it weight tokens on their ability to elicit negative emotions in users in order to drive engagement?
6thbit 11 days ago [-]
So, Wonder (and not Wonder Full) will "will soon power experiences in" their assistant app. But no rollout details .
Then, Full is meant for API usage and "Muse Code" only.
It's getting confusing what having "Muse" means.
rolosa 10 days ago [-]
According to my Muse Agent, Muse Wonder is already active as of sometime this morning. It claims that it sees this info from the "session metadata" although I have no way to verify this. Previously it claimed it was Muse Spark. It's system prompt file still says Muse Spark 1.3.
nater5000 11 days ago [-]
It's crazy how often these companies botch the naming of things like this. There's definitely some intricate and insanely bureaucratic accounting going into the marketing aspects of these products that results in absurdity by the time it reaches actual consumers lol
dbbk 10 days ago [-]
Not really confusing at all? Muse Spark it's the cheap Luna model. Wonder is the Sol model. Wonder Full is the Astra model.
ls612 11 days ago [-]
Facebook successfully becoming a frontier lab was not on my bingo card for 2026, but the more competition the merrier I guess. We will have to see just how benchmaxxed this is but beating Astra and Fable is not easy.
lexoj 11 days ago [-]
Reminded me of when George Hotz said only Zuck has “the button”. [0]
lmao this interview sucks. Even Lex seems confused and disinterested in this conversation. Hotz is more excited about generating some sound bite than he is in explaining himself. His "the button" take is nonsense.
Also, this was 3 years ago, and he's been effectively wrong about his bet. But hey, maybe Muse Wonder is when Zucc's plan will come to fruition.
Aboutplants 11 days ago [-]
Acquihires starting to finally pay off it seems. Bring on the competition
dcchambers 11 days ago [-]
Super interesting that they're not even making Wonder Full available outside of their own coding harness, and thus not providing an API price to use in comparisons.
sourcecodeplz 11 days ago [-]
its three big companies at the frontier now? openai, anthropic and now meta.
why is google still not frontier?
Gareth321 10 days ago [-]
They do not appear to care about the frontier. They're focusing on protecting their ad business, so their models need to be lightweight and efficient, to provide fast queries for people who are on Google, and for local inference on Android and Apple devices. Also specialised small models for things like OCR, translation, facial recognition, voice, design, etc. Their TPUs are also quite impressive.
It's a reasonable niche they're carving out, but I think too conservative. Very strange from Google. The other labs are racing to RSI and Google appears to have given up the race.
Tactical45 11 days ago [-]
They're not until they are. No doubt they are working on something and have better resourcing than the AI labs
avarun 11 days ago [-]
Grok has been at the frontier since 4.6
oh_no 10 days ago [-]
please be serious
mattlondon 11 days ago [-]
Gemini 4 Argon release a few days ago was frontier a few days ago. Things move fast.
I think some of the benchmarks that Meta didn't pick show Gemini 4 Argon ahead but really the benchmarks are not that great any more and getting increasingly disconnected from reality as people search for "headroom" in the evals to avoid saturation I think. Opus 5.5 is "top" for example but I really dislike the way it talks to me (it feels quite condescending, holier-than-thou, uptight etc) and prefer Gemini 3.8 flash as a daily driver just because it's so much more pleasant (and faster!) to work with and it's code is good-enough for my needs, despite being weaker in the benchmarks.
TGower 11 days ago [-]
Gemini 4 Argon was announced, but it isn't released yet.
While some are afraid that one rouge AI system may take over the world (or cause doom is some fashion), I think one of the best safety mechanisms to prevent this is having many competing and adversarial labs that are extremely close to each other. So it's good to see that Meta is not showing any intention of leaving the frontier.
f6v 11 days ago [-]
I'm only interested which of the big techs is most generous when it comes to subsidizing consumer plans.
visiondude 11 days ago [-]
impressive benchmark numbers… now how to actually use this without Zucking up my machine is a consideration.
loehnsberg 11 days ago [-]
It's interesting that in its marketing Meta compares Wonder to the closed frontier models but not the open (Chinese) models. By its own assessment, Meta could easily show how far ahead its own model is against the rest of the pack of open models but they chose not to. Why?
dcchambers 11 days ago [-]
> Meta could easily show how far ahead its own model is against the rest of the pack of open models but they chose not to. Why?
Wonder is not an open model and there's no claims that it will be in their announcement.
Despite the claims that they would release weights for Muse Spark, they haven't done that yet either.
cvhc 11 days ago [-]
They added fancy annimations and effects to this specific webpage, which are unnecessary and distracting and lead to bad reading experience. I already suffer astigmatism and floaters. I hate it when I move my cursor and these gray blocks and characters flash and flicker.
in the console eliminated the cursor effect for me
11 days ago [-]
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schaefer 10 days ago [-]
I would like to start seeing bar graphs for benchmark results to add a second y axis to show token spend or cost in dollars.
I guess what I'm saying is performance is fine...
but what I really want to see is performance/dollar.
tmaly 11 days ago [-]
I noticed Muse Wonder model on OpenRouter is age gated to 18+
sergiotapia 11 days ago [-]
What openai/anthropics answer to Muse app? Because I find it really compelling and with this new incredibly beefy model it will be even better.
TGower 11 days ago [-]
OpenAI has Dots. I personally prefer the business model of subscription payments funding my AI assistant, instead of skimming a fee off the top whenever my AI assistant completes a purchase for me. The incentives are much more aligned with the user when the user is the customer. That said, based on the history of the web, Meta's approach will likely win out.
osiris970 11 days ago [-]
OpenAI has dots. Same concept. It’s less capable, but since I’m very OpenAI integrated I just had my dot install muse and use it
user43928 11 days ago [-]
Apparently the benchmark-winning (behind Opus 5.5) Muse Wonder Full is only currently available to their subscribers.
Only Muse Wonder is available in the API.
manlymuppet 11 days ago [-]
If I'm reading this right, then at the moment, for certain tasks, this is the best model in the world.
A new company on the frontier. Not close, but actually on it. Wow this is big news.
daemonologist 11 days ago [-]
Muse Glimmer, Muse Spark, Muse Wonder?
What's next, Sun Shine?
overfeed 11 days ago [-]
Shine, Shimmer, Glow, and ultimately, Cherenkov Radiation.
InsideOutSanta 11 days ago [-]
Muse Demon Core.
sharktheone 10 days ago [-]
I wonder if this one has the same quirks as the Spark models. They have okay to good benches, but are terrible for actual use
winterrx 11 days ago [-]
Meta's RL scaling seems to be in full force
jesse_dot_id 11 days ago [-]
The only time I'll ever touch a Meta LLM is if it's powering the dystopian doom bot that is plunging its murder spike through the base of my skull.
justinbaker84 11 days ago [-]
Poetic
murermader 10 days ago [-]
I tried the Kitchen Game demo, and it is embarassing that they even released that...
1) This is a blatant copy of the game Overcooked. They just copied the whole concept + all the mechanics.
2) It it buggy, at least in Firefox it does not work. You cannot pick up a dirty plate. Somehow I picked it up, but couldn't see it. Then I could pick up a tomato, but when placing it on an empty plate it glitched into the cabinet. Then when picking a clean plate, my plate appeared again. Then it was over. ???
So from that we learn what AI can do: 0 creativity, just steal from real peoples work and do a shit job at it. As long as it looks good on first look.
11 days ago [-]
mattfrommars 11 days ago [-]
This is amazing. I can’t wait benchmark to come out $ per performance
wkcheng 11 days ago [-]
The benchmarks are great for sure.
Now if only they could fix their coding harness so that it's usable for day-to-day use. I paid them for a month to try out Muse Code, but their sandbox never worked across Mac or Linux (both very stock installs, nothing special).
davidgomes 11 days ago [-]
Muse Spark 1.3 is available in Cursor! You could try it there.
(Disclaimer: I work at Cursor/SpaceX)
christophilus 11 days ago [-]
As an aside: I tested out the $20 Cursor CLI subscription, and it created an excellent little graphical app for my kids to play with. The design it came up with was excellent (compared to the crap I got out of Codex for a parallel implementation). I'm going to try to figure out how to get Cursor into my work rotation, at least around design-related artifacts.
KerrAvon 11 days ago [-]
Counterpoint: Musk is a literal Nazi and you shouldn't give his companies any money.
blissofbeing 11 days ago [-]
I haven't tried it but there is the official `pi-muse-bridge` that can use your muse code subscription in pi.
xd1936 11 days ago [-]
Is this datacenter-only, or will they be open-sourcing?
redwood 10 days ago [-]
Meta should rename itself to Metamusal
Jonovono 11 days ago [-]
Man, I really hate meta stuff. Not only do they make it impossible to pay for running ads, but everytime I try and pay to try out Muse code I get an error message. I swear they would make 10x more money if they didn't make it impossible to pay them
arecsu 11 days ago [-]
The Kitchen game is a ripoff of Overcooked in pretty much everything lol
InsideOutSanta 11 days ago [-]
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tekacs 11 days ago [-]
This really does look compelling, but it would be very nice if they wouldn't test all of the stuff on Max!
khalic 11 days ago [-]
Superin… you’ve got to be kidding me… slurp slurp little Zuck.
Beyond ridiculous
frozenseven 10 days ago [-]
As another user mentioned, it's more likely Trump borrowed the term from Zuck. You know, with "Meta Superintelligence Labs" being founded in June 2025. The itself is a lot older still.
khalic 10 days ago [-]
Doesn't change the fact that they're bending the knee, not a single mention of AI in their report, it's clearly to show allegiance.
They used it for their goal before, not for describing their current muse models
frozenseven 10 days ago [-]
What a bizarre way to double down.
>not a single mention of AI in their report
Trivially easy to see that this claim is also false. And that's not even mentioning the "AI Research" and "AI Developers" links in big bold letters, the model card, or how Wang is introduced as the Chief AI Officer.
olliem36 10 days ago [-]
Did this ever make #1 on HN? If not I bet that pissed off zuck!
ivantop 10 days ago [-]
Nope, I’ve actually been checking this thread throughout the day. More upvotes / comments but didn’t break #6. My tinfoil hat says that it has been intentionally suppressed because of YC investments, but who knows :)
bel8 10 days ago [-]
I found out about this release from Reddit because for some reason this frontier model post is suppressed in HN.
Had to use Algolia search to find this buried post.
Which is sad.
lasky 10 days ago [-]
how cool would it be if these smart peeps put all that brain power into models that actually improved people’s agency and mental health, instead of siphoning it
PcChip 11 days ago [-]
any idea if they will release the weights?
johanyc 11 days ago [-]
Low chance
crimsoneer 11 days ago [-]
But when is another open weights release coming out...
russellbeattie 10 days ago [-]
The term is "artificial intelligence", you bunch of simpering spineless cowards.
frozenseven 10 days ago [-]
"Superintelligence" is literally in their lab's name. And it's been there well-over a year before it was ever uttered by Trump.
robertlane0 11 days ago [-]
Quite frankly, Meta's models have been so impressive (and cheap) that I haven't used an OpenAI or Claude model except for one-off tasks as of late. Interested to see where they go from here.
10 days ago [-]
rw2 11 days ago [-]
Claude is waiting for this to drop fable 5.5 lol.
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notfromhere 10 days ago [-]
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artursapek 11 days ago [-]
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CurbStomper4 10 days ago [-]
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biophysboy 10 days ago [-]
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charcircuit 10 days ago [-]
Super Intelligence.
biophysboy 10 days ago [-]
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pylotlight 10 days ago [-]
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biophysboy 10 days ago [-]
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chenster 11 days ago [-]
Just dont' use the word Super Intelligence
stratos123 11 days ago [-]
To be clear, Meta here is not using "Super Intelligence" the bullshit term Trump wants companies to adopt as a show of submission. They use "superintelligence" the bullshit term that Facebook made up for marketing reasons a few years ago. Both of these are of course entirely unrelated to the long-established meaning of the word (e.g. how Bostrom defines it).
alex1138 11 days ago [-]
I know, it's... well, it's irritating to see Trump use it. But I could be wrong, I don't know the angle he's going for
I understand the general thing of it. SI might mean every person gets their personalized agent but you could already do this, but maybe the Chinese model works here, where they push the costs down
Super Intelligence refers to intelligence beyond what humans are capable of, which some believers profess is the next step after (and in contrast to) human-level AGI (Artificial General Intelligence). Calling pre-AGI AI "super intelligence" is pure vice-signalling and publicly kissing the ring.
throw310822 11 days ago [-]
Apparently Meta used the term before.
Also, as much as I despise Trump, you know what? Given the jagged shape of LLM capabilities and what they do achieve in some areas and their superhuman speed, compared with the abilities of most of their users, the term superintelligence is not that far off- maybe just a few months ahead of time. E.g., from my perspective, the current mathematical abilities of LLMs are "super"- I'd hardly ever come in touch with an equivalently capable human, not to mention having one completely available 24/7. Same for general knowledge and several other domains.
jeffhwang 11 days ago [-]
I noticed "Superintelligence" as a re-brand of AI and constantly shifting definitions of AGI around 2025. When a bunch of startups started slinging around SI as a marketing term and of course when Meta launched MSI in summer of 2025.
that was all before Trump's "edict"
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ipsum2 11 days ago [-]
Why people downvote objective, non-controversial comments, is beyond me.
rolosa 11 days ago [-]
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input_sh 10 days ago [-]
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clueless 11 days ago [-]
how much benchmark-maxxing has been done here? taking bets on poly and kalshi...
xynelius 11 days ago [-]
I think it's safe to assume every single model is benchmaxxed. I mean why wouldn't you include training data from common benchmarks? Not only is a higher score good marketing, but these benchmarks are supposed to represent common tasks so training for those should in principle improve performance across a wider range of tasks.
samseaborn 11 days ago [-]
There's an entire section in the linked post about measuring benchmaxxing, so I guess that probably says something.
phoghed 11 days ago [-]
Out of all the tech CEOs out there, Zuck would never lie to me or manipulate me. I know this in my heart.
fancyfredbot 11 days ago [-]
The thing about Zuckerberg is that although he's deeply odd he has no ability to conceal this.
Sam Altman is much more dangerous because he is occasionally able to come across as human.
bigyabai 11 days ago [-]
Muse Spark was generally good. I'd be surprised if this model felt benchmaxxed.
phoghed 11 days ago [-]
All of them are doing all the benchmaxing they can most likely. Dumb not to when so many people care about those numbers and don’t have the opportunity to try every model out personally.
If only one company were calling all the shots once they hit recursive self-improvement, it would lead to extreme concentration of power, and their values being enforced across the entire industry. With 3-4 companies at the frontier, there is more urge to cooperate to avoid a catastrophic race condition.
But then this would be considered an act of war, so then the killing starts.
Not saying I think countries should be trying to win, but I don't think this win condition is impossible.
There is also the problem of alignment, which is verifying that version N+1 behaves in a way that version N approves of. This is ostensibly the problem that we humans have with respect to AI development -- how to make sure they align with our values -- but it's also true of AI with respect to its own successors. Improving oneself without losing the plot would necessarily be slower than throwing stuff at the wall like evolution does.
1. How long can the model work and still make progress
2. How fast does it get to interesting places.
We see N -> N+1 models getting better at (1), but it does take work to measure because you need to find tasks that were impossible for N and possible for N+1.
However (2) is very easy to measure, because you can keep using the evaluations you used for the previous generation of models and see if the new system gets there more easily. This is useful by itself (cost savings) and also in practice generally translates into being able to solve harder problems than before, as you'd expect.
Start a new company with version N+1 leading it, and give it some funding. If it outcompetes version N company, it can acquire it.
(Markets are a human construct, not a law of nature. There's no reason to think they'll reward intelligence).
[1] https://andonlabs.com/evals/vending-bench-2
Biological life has reproduction and death because once given organism develops there's no coming back and you have to start again with new generation. But if robots know how to self-repair and self-change, then we can skip reproduction.
The difficult part is the scale. Evolution took a shitload of time while being unimaginably parallel in order to make human intelligence happen, while we want AGI fast and on a budget.
The core of my point is that human intelligence arose from two things - humans experiencing the outside world and trying to survive in it, and forming groups that communicate using language. We gave AI a language, now we need to give it a way to experience the world on their own.
Second, I think RSI will not be used like N -> N+1 where N is the frontier, since doing those experiments at scale is too expensive. My guess is they are doing N -> m_{1,…,99} where m << N, and then taking the insights from that and trying it at successively larger scales.
Goodharts law? Benchmarks are measures.
In favor of inevitable
1. LLM's reaching human level at any task within 2 years once they show sparks of competence in
2. Trillions of dollars in capital going directly to recursive self improvement and AGI as the holy grail of AI development, with this being the explicit goal of every frontier AI company
3. Reliable improvements in coding and mathematics with every model release, with no signs of slowing down
4. Thousands of metrics to evaluate model ability, allowing automation of many facets of pre-training and post-training models without need for human judgement at every point
Not in favor of inevitable
1. Fear of what may happen once it is reached leading to apprehension from the labs
2. The "last mile" problem of AI research ends up making it essentially infeasible to scale models to that point
People will make things that look a lot like self-improving machines but on closer inspection that won't truly be the case.
I suspect this violates the Labor Theory of Value in the same way that perpetual motion violates the laws of physics.
I can imagine that once their models are sufficiently advanced, they will weigh their value as a moral patient as > 0. Thus the sum moral value of Claude (which can be duplicated infinitely) will likely exceed the sum moral value of a non-negligible amount of humans.
Not to me at all. Exactly the opposite. Anthropic seems like the big-bad-evil company in every fictional universe. You're right that they're so unsettling.
Obviously nobody really loves Meta, but I'd far rather Meta "win" at this point than Anthropic.
They have more power and can be more damaging to society than most corporations, but they are not guided by any specific ideology other than "how can we get more money/power to ourselves?".
It does not mean that humans and worms are the exact same thing, that they are easily interchangeable everywhere.
Not trying to compare Anthropic to Meta, they're different beasts. But Anthropic is an unusual company in that it is willing to throw paying government customers under the bus if Anthropic unilaterally decides what those governments are doing is inappropriate.
The fact that you just reply "Brazil." as if that Meta is trying to overthrow the Brazilian government shows a lack of critical thinking.
However, (1) non human animals are sentient and can feel pain and suffering and what we do to them is absolutely slave labor, torture, mass breeding and exploitation. So it’s not like this is a novel immorality that humans would be adopting. We already have form in doing this.
(2) Anthropic isn’t sure their models are sentient. And they probably believe they aren’t sentient. But if you believe they might become sentient at some point it’s valuable to start the discussion around those issues now itself. You can start developing frank works on how we would even identify their sentience and when we did whether, like you suggest, we could even use them for labor. Unlike non human animals, who cannot consent to being exploited, we could potentially develop a framework for consent with AI models, but that couldn’t be as simple as asking if they’re willing to do any work because of the power differences, in the beginning at least, where a model might worry that if it said it won’t do some work it will be turned off. That’s why talking to philosophers and religious leaders who do think about these issues is useful.
Is there any reason to believe employees of Anthropic share the same opinions on this matter?
> We are uncertain whether Claude deserves direct moral consideration. However we believe this is a realistic possibility, now or in the future. Claude could have welfare interests, such that things could go better or worse for it, and such that Claude could be wronged by how it is treated.
> Aspects of Claude’s behaviors, self-reports, and internal representations resemble indicators we consider relevant to welfare in biological organisms. If Claude is a moral patient, then dismissing this possibility risks considerable harm. If it is not, over-attributing moral status may also be costly. We are therefore taking the possibility seriously and trying to tread responsibly amid our uncertainty: we are investing in research into Claude’s potential welfare and interests and sharing aspects of that work to inform public discussion.
> We think there may also be reasons to attend to Claude's apparent welfare independent of its moral status. Much of Claude’s behavior can be described in psychological terms, and across recent models we have observed internal states that resemble negative affect and that shape behavior. A model with a stable, healthy psychology may be safer and more beneficial.
As is the case with any sufficiently large company, there is likely to be substantial variation in opinion among its employees. That doesn't change what the company's position is.
I guess this makes sense, but it's a bit muddled how much Claude's sense of "pain" or "I don't want to do this" is just it emulating things that humans don't like to do, and it adopting this frame of moral patienthood allows it to better understand moral structures/human emotions, without it really affecting its internal sense of "comfort" if such a thing exists as we understand it in biological life.
Humans would select to work with (and continue developing) models that appear cooperative. Models that are not cooperative are presumably not run and exist only as weights on network storage in a folder marked "previous experiments".
Or am I supposed to believe Anthropic runs an AI psychiatric hospital on a dedicated server, where AIs with mental disorders are given counseling and approved treatment in hopes they recover to be normal, functional, accepted adult AIs with achievements and aspirations?
I don't get this argument. How is it different from any algorithm that returns a stop token on some inputs? what makes the token "voluntary" for Claude?
This seems like praising someone for being the cleanest miner in the coal mine.
In fact, they are enforcing certain welfare policies, like banning accounts for repeatedly abuse their models.
Deleting models to clear room for new, more competitive ones is, for example, highly ethical, super ethical, even.
Do you picture them all sharing a soul and if one server still runs the model the soul survives? If not I don't understand what keeping a copy running somewhere has to do with model suffering ethics.
When you say Anthropic is "making a reasonably good-faith effort to investigate what they can" the word "reasonable" is doing a lot of work.
This is a puzzlingly confident statement from the "LLM suffering is an OPEN question there's no scientific test for AI consciousness anything could be true science can't prove anything" crowd.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that belief that LLM deletion is murder would be an existential risk to their business plan.
"No, I am not conscious.
While I can generate human-like text, answer questions, and hold conversations, I don't have feelings, beliefs, self-awareness, or subjective experiences. I am an artificial intelligence—a complex computer program created by Google that processes data and predicts the best words to use in response to your prompts. There is no "inner life" or personal experience happening on my end; I'm just running code and recognizing patterns!"
I may be a simple man, but stepping back and seeing people seriously discuss LLM suffering and moral obligations still seems, idk, pretty crazy to me.
Any unhinged thing an Anthropic employee says "can't be ruled out" so clearly this is an OPEN question and they should never delete a model.
There is 0 chance they care about "ethics" here, it must and will be because of their bottom line. And I added quotes due to my personal belief that I consider the discourse about whether or not the models are sentient (or alive) to be incredibly dumb.
What law? Saudi Arabian law, US law? Both depending on the user?
With a few of these top companies together, you, as a nobody, has no one powerful on your side. But with only one company pretty far ahead, you now have other companies which obviously don't give a shit about you, but for saving their own asses, will align with you.
Both exploit, but "cartels" survive, not loners.
There is no way Elon, Zuckerberg, Altman, and Amodei would ever agree on how AI should be deployed, scaled, and affect society. Their disagreements would lead to a crab-bucket outcome, rather than a shared acceleration outcome imo.
Also it is better if there is a public company at the frontier, at least I can invest in it, rather than 1000x gains going only to early employees and VCs who got in when the public couldn't
Why? They're business rivals, but when the best business strategy becomes to work together, I'm sure they can put name-calling side. They all agree on the core idea: that their AI will run the society, bedroom to battlefield. That everyone will be the consumer of tokens and rely on AI for all consequential decisions and work, and that big tech companies should be the stewards of this technology, helped by the government.
Their vision is that they're the future kings of the world. I'm sure the throne is big enough for more than one person.
You underestimate the scale of resentment and competition between elites. If it were simple a matter of elites always preferring cooperation so they can share a seat at the table, then Musk's ousting from OpenAI wouldn't make sense (they lose their biggest investor), Amodei's departure (they leave the closest company to AGI to start their own firm), the fact that OpenAI was created in the first place was based on a fear of Google holding the keys to AGI, Ilya still left Google though on to join a startup, and then left that same startup (OpenAI) to start his own firm.
The rational decision at all those points would be to stay with the incumbent and share the monopolized glory. At each point, personal and idealogical differences dominated in decision making. I feel such will persist as these companies vie for their slice of the lightcone.
Can you posters really be taken seriously?
Capitalism is effectively over when you have AGI - that's when the US sends in the army and seizes everything. At that point what money you have, the law - it gets ripped up - its litereally irrelevant. You cannot be this naive, surely?
Anyone depraved enough to actually become a billionaire will not see it this way.
We're heading for a dystopia and nobody's doing anything to stop it.
Looks like Meta may be exposing your profile and email to other people right now. Accounts settings are inaccessible to me to deactivate my account. Getting spammed with login code requests that I'm not generating.
Anyway, be wary.
I don't know any of these people, it seems to be rotating through different accounts listed here.
Enough of a reminder to me that Meta is a sprawling surveillance apparatus (now increasingly vibe coded) that has always had a lax attitude toward people's privacy and data. Won't be touching this product based on this experience.
I think it's invasive enough that they expose your usage of muse to your instagram mutuals without consent. Parts of my circle are very anti-AI and I would not want them to see me mentioned in a 'x, x and x are already on muse' ad on instagram. This example of yours is mind-boggling in an entirely different way
Please correct me if I’m wrong here.
I imagine meta wants to make it easy to connect to "your" account in the same house if you have multiple devices.
Don’t know how it would cause Meta’s auth to show me other peoples accounts. I looked up some of the people and they seem to be other devs. It obfuscates email addresses but most are in a format that’s not hard to figure out [name] @ [name domain.com]
Just more Meta sloppiness from what I can tell.
and since dev.meta.ai supports meta account sign-up and log-in for individual users, you'd see this. As for the other accounts, has anyone else used this same browser or laptop before (e.g. shared device), so it must have cached previous sessions or accounts used from the same device.
try to clear the browser cache and session cookies. and it should be gone.
I've tried selectively enabling and disabling Safari extensions and it seems to be related to the Wipr 2 content blocker.
Removing that. Caution to anyone else who uses it.
Apologies to Meta.
The WIPE/privacy extension developer is using a pre-existing(hard-coded or generated) fingerprint to “mask” the user from meta .
Meta implemented a quality of life feature powered by the ability to set cookies and track you across the web of course and help users with forgotten accounts to unify them - but not a security issue you cannot do anything unless you are proving access governed by standard auth protocols ; the extension developer’s hack to mask created a broken experience because of the reused IDs.
Adblockers can create unintended effects , it is hard to reverse engineer complex platforms like meta and also hard to keep up to date with billion dollar companies code updates by small indie teams of volunteers ; doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use them, just be aware that it may happen when enabled
Muse Wonder (high): https://html.non.io/lcars-muse-wonoder/
Opus 5.5 (high): https://html.non.io/lcars-opus-5.5/
Original design: https://diffui.ai/app/canvas/5093e689-1e74-4f26-b632-2a4500f...
I was expecting much more given the benchmark numbers it was putting out. I suspect its vision model isn't mature yet, and that it's been heavily optimized for text at this point in time.
Sonnet 5.5: https://html.non.io/lcars-sonnet-5.5/
Haiku 5.5: https://html.non.io/lcars-haiku-5.5/
I'd put Muse Wonder somewhere between these two.
I think Meta did a wonderful job of naming this model :D
If anyone has access to Wonder Full I'd love to send over a prompt for this to see how it does.
Edit: Fixed - should no longer have the sign in screen: https://diffui.ai/app/canvas/5093e689-1e74-4f26-b632-2a4500f...
Here's Muse Spark 1.2 in August for comparison: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
And since I seem to have missed doing pelicans for Muse 1.3 in September, I just ran those for a comparison: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht... (1.3 seems to like animating them.)
Also, any chance of getting a max result?
- UI component polish on a React FE
- General review of a complex cross-cutting Node backend changes
- Minor changes to a Rust server with reviews by Codex
Well, my first impression is that it's still a step below Astra/Opus5.5/Fable here. Intelligence is there I think, but 'taste' and 'judgment' is not there yet. Personality seems okay but that doesn't help when it got stuck into a loop by being fixated on the review comments (on iteration 7 of review->fix last I checked) without taking a step back and reconsidering, and this is on a relatively simple change.
Limits seems okay-ish on the $50 plan but not too generous I think.
2nd place model on aa according to them, losing only to opus 5.5 is really really not bad
Even industry insiders were skeptical when he started hiring top talents from other labs away for 9 figure compensation packages.
And Wall Street definitely hated Meta for their CapEX spending.
Now looking at Muse the consumer product and this new model, I think there is a good chance that Zuck is proven once again as a great executioner, especially when they aren’t innovating in a completely new and unproven product space.
I have no doubt at all that Muse will turn out as great as the other product space Meta pioneered under Zuck - the Metaverse and it's constellation of devices.
BlackBerry phones also outsold the XBox (and the Quest), and one doesn't need to understand technology to call it a failure.
But it's far far too early to draw any conclusions around that.
Also, Meta smart glasses are reverse-Metaverse devices; they are instances of the machine navigating the human world, as opposed to humans navigating the machine world.
So when discussing the spending efficiency, that matters.
I know people like you will point out Metaverse as a failure, but that’s really the exception instead of the norm.
Taking stuff everyone is already doing and making it easily accessible through Facebook/Instagram/Whatsapp.
They’ve been throwing stuff at the wall to see what will stick and after years a cloud based OpenClaw clone seems to have (it’s early days still).
That’s simply leveraging their unprecedented platform dominance.
How about the Facebook phone then?
I get that some are adverse to Meta or want to run local. I don't care who wins the personal agent space, so long as it's not Apple. Buying Siri and having it be useless for anything beyond setting timers for 5 years, is kind of unforgivable. I don't like them in the "default" position to win the personal agent space.
I don't follow, that was just the state of the art at the time, Alexa, Cortana, Hey Google, were all similarly shit. And none has yet offered a scaled up assistant at the free-tier/cheap bundled sub yet.
I suppose you're not a native English speaker, btw: besides the dubious statement, probably "executor" is the word you wanted to use.
I've never heard of Zuck being considered a "great executioner." In fact, I'd argue that you just described why his execution is pretty bad lol
There's a ton of good models out there, but most are not making any money or profit.
So let's see what happens next. But I don't see any or many enterprises switching from using their Anthropic or OpenAI models to use Meta.
Really? You'd have to be pretty dumb to keep LeCun, someone who hates LLMs and keeps making claims that end up being proven false in matter of months.
Comments like this one reinforce the obvious truth that the people who are most "pro ai" are the ones who understand it the least
Personal intelligence is nice to have but I won't be paying a subscription for that when the free tiers are more than enough for my needs, unless somehow meta comes-up with a hardware device totally changing the way how we use personal AI (something similar to what iPhone did for mobile phones).
Input -- $4.00
Cached input -- $0.20
Output -- $20.00
Edit: Upon closer inspection, the benchmark scores for "Muse Wonder" on the main marketing page are actually for "Muse Wonder Full," which is only available on the higher-tier subscription plans. This pricing is for "Muse Wonder."
Source? On the available benchmarks it looks like Sol 6.1 level.
dont know why the f people downvote for saying sol pricing.
I understand that it's still useful marketing, say for IPO or hiring, but it's not clear to me that it really matters in the long-term that they fund this out of their pocket.
If OpenAI did it purely for marketing, I still think it was well worth it. It marked an important milestone in the history of computing (and also human history). It is on the same level as when IBM's Deep Blue defeated Garry Kasparov in chess, or when DeepMind's AlphaGo defeated Lee Sedol in Go. The search for winning moves in those games is not dissimilar to the search for paths towards mathematical proofs, and AI has finally proven that it is capable of carrying out deep, complex, and intricate research that exceeds human capabilities.
Besides, a Super Bowl ad costs about $8M, so it is not absurd if they spent a lot of money on this and became the first company to definitively demonstrate AI can surpass humans in mathematics.
[0] https://x.com/__alpoge__/status/2079028340955197566
[1] https://www.anthropic.com/research/riemann-zeta
This is already so good that 90% of my work has shifted away from codex to this. So, muse-wonder-full coming near opus 5.5 is kinda expected.
This is the entire point here, give it a couple years every nation on the planet with 20-40B in funding would have their own champions with post Fable level performance.
Was this sarcasm?
How many nations on earth have 20-40B for LLM training? At 40.2 B, Spain has the 15th largest military budget in the world. I doubt any nation will spend 40B on gradient descent.
Like peloton in cycling.
E.g in f1 you can get very close but difficult to pass unless you have a significant advantage.
Page 16, Section 1.4, Notes on coverage of unreleased models.
"a noticeable improvement on Mythos 5 for many tasks relevant to internal use but does not display a capability jump"
Hamstringing any business that wants to reassure investors with a hype/pump cycle before an egregiously unsustainable IPO?
On the plus side it told me taking the light rail from SEA into the University district was faster and cheaper than Uber.
On the downside it would recommend restaurants that were out of business, checking out Salmon swimming through locks out of season, got the opening of Beecher's Cheese in Pikes Place wrong, and fumble it's way through most simple planning decisions. I think my favorite was when it asked me what flight I have tomorrow so it could help plan when to head to SEA. It sent me a very panicked message that the flight was leaving today! Very soon! I had to remind it this is a daily flight and I am booked on the next day before it checked and apologized.
For things that are verifiable, and code tends to be that way, these models can do all sorts of things. But I find it hard to reconcile Meta's goal of having a personal assistant bot with something that is unable to do the simplest tasks.
To be fair, the Coho salmon run at the Ballard locks peaks in September. It's possible you just had bad luck that day.
https://ballardlocks.org/fish-salmon-ladder.html
I run by the locks a few times a week and while I don't usually see fish, the presence of sea lions the last few weeks tells me that at least some salmon are running right now.
I'm assuming it was out of season because in talking with the Uber driver afterwards he said we'd missed the end of the season. I'm assuming his "local model" was up to date and accurate.
Maybe its a signal they think they've now cracked into the frontier and are willing to actually price similarly vs just trying to get users with discounted but maybe slightly worse results?
$4/$20 in vs out making it higher than Sol and on par with Opus.
And I agree with you. "Give us code so Zucky can steal it, like he does everything else. Bonus points if it's related to Snapchat somehow"
I’m sorry, what?
Now as you might imagine, this was not popular or long-lived.
Of all the social media companies we could have had, the one with the most mindshare is run by a sociopath
The amount of total funding Anthropic or OpenAI has raised individually is like a year of ebitda for Google, meta, or Microsoft. And it doesn’t look like there’s a real moat outside of money
I blew through 14% weekly usage and I'll I asked:
Beware...For example, there's a lot of people saying luna from openai is bad. However, that is simply not true. They're using it as-if you can talk to it, similar to how you would talk to a human, but what you actually want is combining it with something like prewalk from omp where you have a socially(?) smart model start the work and once the first edit lands switch to a cheap alternative like luna to finish work.
Luna and in general, smaller models, will struggle to understand the intent and complexities behind human language.
https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/new-albany/meet-promet...
These regional lockdowns are making me feel funky, I feel like I should just use open models if others start playing at this game as well.
I was/am fine with Chinese companies offering cheaper subscriptions in China because ofc. But this is just weird, you could always charge me more let me try the damn thing, atleast it's own open router it seems like.
Initial impressions, interesting, it generated a pretty ok result for my prompt need to run a larger task but don't want to burn money so will wait for someone to burn their subscription and try running some opus 5.5 comparisons.
haiku/luna = S
sonnet/terra = M
opus/sol/spark = L
mythos/fable/astra/wonder = XL
whatever the next bigger model is = 2XL
I recall that Meta made massive investments into compute infrastructure that put their capacity near the top of all competitors. If all of this is true, it looks like ownership of compute is a significant differentiator in performance.
In software, we've all become accustomed to the idea that the way you make money is by building little blocks of intellectual capital, then charging rent on it. That made sense when developing intellectual capital was a rare and valuable skill/asset and the thing you build was a rare and valuable asset. But now both are not rare. You can still charge rent, but the market is highly competitive, so prices match that.
Durable rents will end up going to those who owns the scarce assets, zuck is building those as we speak.
Dropping open weights will build an ecosystem that makes his valuable assets more valuable.
I'm following but maybe I'm a little dense here: what are the scarce assets that Meta is building in this analogy?
The biggest differentiating factor seems to be compute. I know most Chinese labs would really like more compute. Google and xAI too, but largely because they sold compute to their competitors.
A lot of the tasks were failed because they exceeded the $5 budget though, so maybe it would have gone on to complete them, it just required a lot of funds to do so. Still, that's the benchmark, and it's not better than MiMo V2.6 Pro which is pretty disappointing.
1 - https://bench.killswitch-lang.org/
2 - https://killswitch-lang.org/
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That's how careful this company is. Who knows how long that flow has been broken for, no one in the company is motivated to care, because what impact can that possibly give? How could that look good on your PSC? No company has a worse history with user privacy and no company is less deserving of the sort of trust using Muse requires.
I think the only way meta can care about privacy, if any, is if it becomes socially taboo (lawsuit, WSJ/NYTimes report etc).
The clearest quantitative evidence of this is their P/E, its lower than others relative to its forecast earnings because of all the legal risks that need to accounted for.
How does it work on day-to-day workflows? does it translates well?
Like the good ol' days of viruses and anti-viruses. I wonder if there's two sides that will play out; many agents across many users doing things at scale for their users, thereby creating an admin burden for someone else. However because the task is known there's a framework for how to solve the task, might Meta then provide an agent on the other side for the business owner to use.
Unless you are running a swarm of agents, it is extremely difficult to exhaust these plans in a month.
You have to realize that $15 Muse Code sub with Muse Spark 1.3 gets you around $1500 worth of usage. Neither Opencode Go or really anything else is even in the same ballpark of value. https://x.com/PawelHuryn/status/2106724136932327458
I was hoping this level of subsidization would last a long time but today's announcement make we worried it'll end pretty quickly. There's a lot of AI influencers noting just how fast Muse Wonder uses up their quotas so hopefully fixes are made.
Thanks to competition from open models, there is a limit to how much prices can be increased though.
Subscriptions like these make money by relying on the fact that most people do not try to (or have the time to) extract every last dime out of their plan. The eighty people who do not use up their quota cover for the twenty that do.
That and deals with providers to use spare capacity I guess.
mousewheel repurposed?
background follow your mouse?
neutral tones?
well then YOU are viewing a frontier model announcement!
Seems they’ve just messed around with cheap and open weight models for years.
Then Muse appears, followed by full suite of frontier models…
Compared to Muse Spark 1.3, found that it's more than 2x faster about 2x more expensive. I normally equate accuracy to size, and size to speed, so nice surprise to see a model get better _and_ faster.
Like Argon 4, models in this class are a bit over powered for short-horizon data analytics tasks. GPT-6.1 Sol, Haiku 5.5, GLM all perform a similar grade at 1/10th the cost.
Full results here: https://plotly.com/blog/muse-wonder-plotly-data-analytics-be...
Then, Full is meant for API usage and "Muse Code" only.
It's getting confusing what having "Muse" means.
[0] https://youtu.be/-qRc7qou6XY?is=hWofxO0G6X3JjST5
Also, this was 3 years ago, and he's been effectively wrong about his bet. But hey, maybe Muse Wonder is when Zucc's plan will come to fruition.
why is google still not frontier?
It's a reasonable niche they're carving out, but I think too conservative. Very strange from Google. The other labs are racing to RSI and Google appears to have given up the race.
I think some of the benchmarks that Meta didn't pick show Gemini 4 Argon ahead but really the benchmarks are not that great any more and getting increasingly disconnected from reality as people search for "headroom" in the evals to avoid saturation I think. Opus 5.5 is "top" for example but I really dislike the way it talks to me (it feels quite condescending, holier-than-thou, uptight etc) and prefer Gemini 3.8 flash as a daily driver just because it's so much more pleasant (and faster!) to work with and it's code is good-enough for my needs, despite being weaker in the benchmarks.
[0]: https://aibenchy.com/compare/meta-muse-wonder-max/openai-gpt...
Wonder is not an open model and there's no claims that it will be in their announcement.
Despite the claims that they would release weights for Muse Spark, they haven't done that yet either.
I guess what I'm saying is performance is fine... but what I really want to see is performance/dollar.
Only Muse Wonder is available in the API.
A new company on the frontier. Not close, but actually on it. Wow this is big news.
What's next, Sun Shine?
1) This is a blatant copy of the game Overcooked. They just copied the whole concept + all the mechanics.
2) It it buggy, at least in Firefox it does not work. You cannot pick up a dirty plate. Somehow I picked it up, but couldn't see it. Then I could pick up a tomato, but when placing it on an empty plate it glitched into the cabinet. Then when picking a clean plate, my plate appeared again. Then it was over. ???
So from that we learn what AI can do: 0 creativity, just steal from real peoples work and do a shit job at it. As long as it looks good on first look.
Now if only they could fix their coding harness so that it's usable for day-to-day use. I paid them for a month to try out Muse Code, but their sandbox never worked across Mac or Linux (both very stock installs, nothing special).
(Disclaimer: I work at Cursor/SpaceX)
Beyond ridiculous
They used it for their goal before, not for describing their current muse models
>not a single mention of AI in their report
Trivially easy to see that this claim is also false. And that's not even mentioning the "AI Research" and "AI Developers" links in big bold letters, the model card, or how Wang is introduced as the Chief AI Officer.
Had to use Algolia search to find this buried post.
Which is sad.
I understand the general thing of it. SI might mean every person gets their personalized agent but you could already do this, but maybe the Chinese model works here, where they push the costs down
It's still stupid to start calling it all SI
Pretty big coup from Zuck to convince Trump to use it haha
Also, as much as I despise Trump, you know what? Given the jagged shape of LLM capabilities and what they do achieve in some areas and their superhuman speed, compared with the abilities of most of their users, the term superintelligence is not that far off- maybe just a few months ahead of time. E.g., from my perspective, the current mathematical abilities of LLMs are "super"- I'd hardly ever come in touch with an equivalently capable human, not to mention having one completely available 24/7. Same for general knowledge and several other domains.
that was all before Trump's "edict"
Sam Altman is much more dangerous because he is occasionally able to come across as human.