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msftgreed 14 hours ago [-]
This is a great example of the curb cut effect -- a system designed for accessibility needs turns out to be useful in other contexts. Curb cuts were designed for people with disabilities, particularly veterans, and over time have become more and more standard. They help people who use wheelchairs, yes, but also people without disabilities like those with strollers, bikes, luggage, or small kids.
We love to see accessibility features find uses outside their original intent.
airstrafer 11 hours ago [-]
Agreed. I like the framing that there are three kinds of disability: permanent (I lost my arm in a motorcycle crash), temporal (I broke my arm and can’t use it for a while), and situational (I’m walking my dog so I can only use one arm for other things).
Generally we only refer to someone with a permanent disability as “disabled” but in reality we are all disabled in various categories at different times of our lives. Accessibility is important to all three groups (you need to be able to use your phone with one hand), therefore accessibility is important to everyone.
msftgreed 9 hours ago [-]
And furthermore, ~15% of us are permanently disabled. So the percentages for temporary or situational disability rise even higher than that.
rmunn 4 hours ago [-]
Where does that 15% number come from? Because I would have to assume it is using a very broad definition of disabled, which would include invisible disabilities. Certainly it's not true that 15% of the people I see are in a wheelchair, on crutches, missing a limb, obviously blind (e.g. walking with a cane), and so on. Even allowing for the fact that many people with disabilities stay home (often by necessity, sometimes by choice) rather than go out to run errands, still I doubt the number would get anywhere close to 15% if the definition only included the kinds of disabilities that are immediately obvious to anyone looking.
madeofpalk 3 hours ago [-]
In fact, I would say it's probably too low! Like, how is prescription glasses to correct vision not an assistive device for a disability, like poor eyesight?
Honestly, what's the difference between a wheelchair and prescription glasses? Both are medical devices prescribed be a healthcare professional to assist with a physical impairment.
pheaded_while9 54 minutes ago [-]
What's the difference between glasses and an iron lung? Only the degree, severity, dependance, impact, consequence, social implication, dehumanization, and every other meaningful aspect!
Gravityloss 3 hours ago [-]
One can try putting themselves sometimes in the position of an old person. Let's say you have a heavy steel rollator with grocery bags hanging from the handles. You've spent an hour going to the store in the summer heat and are quite exhausted. Now try to enter your building. There's locked door that needs to be held open, and two thresholds, one for the platform in front of the door and one for the door. You can't go over the first threshold with your rollator as that would prevent the door from being opened.
Now, I think the assumed way to get in is to keep the door open with your body while simultaneously lifting the rollator over both thresholds. This requires considerable strength, as you have to reach far with a heavy weight. Maybe an athlete could do it. Not an old exhausted person.
An old person needs to first leave the rollator out, open the door and make it so it stays open with a hook. Involves crouching and working with your hands close to the ground. Then lift the rollator one by one over the steps and go inside. Then come back out and close the door.
A foot operated door stopper and a few slopes could probably ease that up tremendously.
AnthonyMouse 5 hours ago [-]
> the curb cut effect
Which itself is kind of an interesting example of how these things should work, because the curbs are maintained by the government, so the compliance cost is getting paid by the taxpayer.
Which is as it should be, because if something is to be required as a public benefit then it should be paid for out of public funds rather than as an unfunded mandate. Then thing like curb cuts continue to be a good deal so people are happy to fund them, whereas measures that cost more than they're worth get the level of opposition that they should because the taxpayer has to pay for them. And either way you would stop stressing smaller companies and causing market consolidation by increasing compliance costs.
sparqlittlestar 4 hours ago [-]
Doesn't your argument hinge on the fact that roads and sidewalks are public works anyway?
The fact that compliance costs outprices some smaller companies rather shows that we as a society prefer to have accomodations, than live in one where such accomodations are only affordable to the affluent.
AnthonyMouse 2 hours ago [-]
> Doesn't your argument hinge on the fact that roads and sidewalks are public works anyway?
Not at all, it just happens that we're already doing the right thing in that case because it wasn't possible to stick the wrong party with the bill.
> The fact that compliance costs outprices some smaller companies rather shows that we as a society prefer to have accomodations, than live in one where such accomodations are only affordable to the affluent.
It isn't the consumers being priced out, it's the producers. Which in turn causes the market to consolidate so that only the affluent can afford the big company monopolist's product anyway, and everyone else not only doesn't get accommodations but can't even afford the product or service anymore. Housing is a solid example of this; unfunded mandates make construction significantly more expensive and now millions of people can't afford a home.
Whereas if the taxpayer had to fund everything the government mandates, the mandates would have to account for the cost directly rather than hiding it inside the price of everything else, allowing people to make better choices about which ones are worth what they cost.
shortercode 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah it wasn’t until I started pushing my daughter around in a pram that I started appreciating them. Crossing a road without them is a chore.
I saw a sibling comment mentioning about the drop curbs making the path awkwardly angled. Yeah they can be a real pain. Pushing a pram along on an angled path is hell on the wrists. But a lot of the troublesome ones are the wider ones for people to get their cars up to their front door.
Makes you think about how hard just going down the road with a wheelchair is.
dingaling 6 hours ago [-]
Dropped curbs also make progress more difficult for users using the pavement / sidewalk in a normal manner, since it introduces constrictions and trip hazards - which is a aspect of "curb cut effect" that is glossed over.
Try going for a run along a pavement with frequent curb cuts, it's not pleasant. UK dropped curbs are somewhat less of a trip hazard but are so frequent in towns that you end up running with an ankle at an angle.
mrweasel 3 hours ago [-]
I've never really seen the dropped curbs as a hazard, but I guess it depends on how they are made and if they've been designed in from the start.
One "weird" complaint that I have with some accessibility features is that they mount things so that wheelchair users (and children) can operate them, e.g. a ATM mounted at groin height. I'm fairly tall so now I struggle to operate them or have to bend in unnatural angles. It's a small price to pay to make the world navigable to others, but almost daily I run into things that "are clearly designed by idiots". That is until I remember that the average person is below 180cm and right handed.
jaapz 5 hours ago [-]
This just makes no sense whatsoever. You can just step over dropped curbs like you can step over normal curbs?
Even if this is not the case for some weird reason - don't you agree that making the world a little bit more accessible for people who have a really hard time getting around is worth making the world just a tiny little bit less accessible for you - the person who can litterally run around?
If you have a considerable problem with tripping often though, maybe look at how you do running.
cronin101 4 hours ago [-]
Running with your ankle at an angle occasionally gives great strength/mobility benefits. You'd need to be putting out some serious racer pace for curb cuts to be impacting your experience in any way.
Just make sure you alternate which side of the road you are running on somewhat evenly so you are getting the benefit on both sides.
snayan 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah, I just run on the road or trails to avoid areas like this. Happy to make this trade so that folks in wheelchairs etc can actually use the sidewalk, they need it more than I do!
sdfsfdsdfs3d 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, fully agreed. Also try practicing jeu de boules on pavements with cut curbs. The balls will constantly roll off the edge. It's infuriating.
My most unpleasant experience so far has been during my daily public heavy deadlifting routine. When I place my barbell on the edge of the curb, which my particular style of lifting requires, it's placed at an angle so my back got messed up and it's all the fault of these curb cutting measures.
It's all fine and dandy you want to assist children and handicapped people, but it'll be at the expense of regular users of the pavement which use it for completely sane and normal activities.
4ndrewl 5 hours ago [-]
And that is the correct response to tedious contrarinism. Thank you!
rcbdev 5 hours ago [-]
Only because anglo-style curb cuts are designed horribly. In Austria, they are unobtrusive add-ons to the sidewalk instead of literally obstructing the sidewalk.
My conclusion, as always, is that U.S.-Americans and Brits do not walk. Otherwise these design choices do not make any sense.
rcbdev 5 hours ago [-]
Who is "we"? Do you work somewhere that specialises in the curb cut effect? Would love to hear more about your organization.
conductr 7 hours ago [-]
Won’t dispute the utility, but curious if they would have become standard without regulations. At least in the US, I associate them with ADA requirements
ButlerianJihad 4 hours ago [-]
And skateboards, roller skates, scooters!
Cider9986 19 hours ago [-]
Mobile Device Management (MDM) is the only effective way to restrict idevices.
All you need is a macbook and Apple Configurator.
You can remove safari, blacklist or whitelist websites, block installing apps, block deleting apps. It's really customizable.
Edit: expanded acronym.
koolala 15 hours ago [-]
Only? Their solution in the article seemed effective.
thephyber 7 hours ago [-]
This iOS feature isn’t only about locking out users from some features/apps.
It turns a complicated phone into a much more simple one. Both kids and the elderly can benefit from it.
My only issue is that the was only introduced in 2024, so older iPhones can’t benefit.
leipert 6 hours ago [-]
It was introduced in iOS 18, which is installable back to iPhone Xs (2018). So 8 years of devices have that setting.
andylynch 4 hours ago [-]
Curse Apple and their planned obsolescence /s.
eigencoder 17 hours ago [-]
I've used MDM to make my iPhone dumb. It's great! I wish there was an easy way to publish my configuration so others could use it / adapt it, but it's a little involved because you have to wipe your phone the first time you set it up with configurator.
Melatonic 4 hours ago [-]
Can't you use a config profile and enroll it ?
Cider9986 17 hours ago [-]
I did that when I had an iPhone, I agree it was excellent. More people should do it.
Looking forward to MDM support on GrapheneOS.
sneak 12 hours ago [-]
Supervised devices cannot be backed up and restored to supervised devices. You can only backup/restore to an unsupervised target. If you want supervision, you have to abandon your backup.
It sucks.
Cider9986 9 hours ago [-]
Is that iCloud iPhone backup and local backups?
sneak 6 hours ago [-]
I don’t use iCloud, so I don’t know.
matthewfcarlson 13 hours ago [-]
I’m curious about this, what did you do to make it dumb?
Interesting. But the list of apps on there is huge! Is it really still a dumbphone? Tha just looks like the apps I already have on my phone, and I still feel like I use my phone too much. What other apps do people have that are so addictive? Games, socials?
binkHN 15 hours ago [-]
> All you need is a macbook
Is it really not possible to do this with a non-Apple machine?
12 hours ago [-]
Cider9986 14 hours ago [-]
Not afaict.
sampton 18 hours ago [-]
MDM is just parental control for adults.
qup 19 hours ago [-]
What does the acronym stand for
wilcoooo 19 hours ago [-]
Mobile Device Management
Dragging-Syrup 19 hours ago [-]
mobile device management
virgil_disgr4ce 15 hours ago [-]
Monumental Deployment Mastermind
alanwreath 6 hours ago [-]
I thought they prohibited the Apple mdm for family use. Was this a soft ban? Can we just use it without like verifying it’s just for the family?
sbayg 17 hours ago [-]
MDM is the worst part of iOS. It undermines all of apple’s security claims, basically making iOS windows. Devices should not be able to be remotely controlled.
walrus01 15 hours ago [-]
MDM is designed for corporate owned phone environments where there's a great many good reasons to lock down a phone. If you're handing out company owned phones to employees you want the ability to remotely lock/wipe, install and remove apps, set a number of restrictions. If people want to do anything else they are completely welcome to do it on their own personally owned property.
For instance I have recently seen a very successful Apple MDM deployment in a school environment where the teachers and staff have access to a great depth and breadth of PII of a thousand children under age 16. You don't want all those phones to become a free-for-all of people doing whatever they want.
judge2020 16 hours ago [-]
MDM enables enterprises to control how the phones they own behave. If anything it makes it more secure, if an enterprise were to only allow allowlisted apps to run on it.
The only issue is BYOD via MDM (when it's not via "Work Profile"), which is somewhat scary from a user perspective, especially from how hard it is to tell what permissions they might be able to spring on you at any time.
rescbr 13 hours ago [-]
I assume they can spy on anything, that's why I refuse to do any kind of BYOD that requires MDM enrollment. It's also one IT mistake away from wiping out my personal data from my own property.
Company's Outlook, Teams, MS Authenticator and Slack on my personal phone? Ehhhh fine.
The second IT requires a profile it's the second I'm uninstalling anything company related from my phone. They can give me a company phone, or I will only access work related things from their laptop.
Happened twice to me, one time I got a company phone, the other, computer only.
And then some colleagues even paid out-of-pocket to upgrade their Android phones once IT dictated their OS were out of support. No way.
brookst 9 hours ago [-]
Your assumption is wrong.
rescbr 8 hours ago [-]
How so?
p2detar 16 hours ago [-]
Yeah, no - if I provide my employees $1000 devices, I most certainly would like to be able to exercise some sort of management over them.
> making iOS windows
Baseless claims.
deepsun 15 hours ago [-]
$1000 is irrelevant. Corporate information, and clients information (sometime including PII) is worth millions.
Cider9986 17 hours ago [-]
It can be done all locally. How can an optional feature that's not even easy to use be the worst part of iOS?
anshumankmr 8 hours ago [-]
MDM is not the default experience, while Windows doesn't really have a better experience to boast of.
isatty 16 hours ago [-]
Nonsense. MDM is usually for devices owned by the company or opt in by you personally. There is no way to attack or transparently MDM a personal phone that I know of.
Long back Xiaomi Phones used to have soemthing like this. That one feature was how I migrated my in-laws to Smartphones from their Nokias.
The key content from the article;
Here's how you set it up: Head into Settings, tap Accessibility, scroll down to the General section at the very bottom, and tap Assistive Access. Now, tap Set Up Assistive Access, then Continue. It will then ask you to select your preferred appearance: rows or a grid. I suggest choosing a grid. This is how you get those super-large tiles. Now the OS will ask you to select allowed apps—tap the green plus icon next to the apps you want to allow.
xnx 18 hours ago [-]
Summary:
Simplify the iPhone home screen with large icons for kids or seniors:
Settings > Accessibility > General section at the very bottom > Assistive Access
littlecranky67 17 hours ago [-]
it is not just simplified, it lets you chose which apps to show in that "simplified" view. For the elderly, that removes a lot of clutter and ways to shot yourself in the foot.
jerlam 15 hours ago [-]
The article doesn't emphasize it, but Assisted Access also adds back the home/back button, like older iPhones and Androids. There is no more swipe-up motion that I see my parents struggle with because they did it too slow or started from slightly too high on the screen.
I completely understand why Apple and Google removed the buttons (gotta maximize that screen real estate), but the affordance for an obvious home/reset button is great for some people.
Melatonic 4 hours ago [-]
Does it do anything else ?
frollogaston 12 hours ago [-]
I'm young and able-bodied, still have trouble swiping up. Especially after Liquid Glass glassed my phone.
anal_reactor 12 hours ago [-]
> I completely understand why Apple and Google removed the buttons
It was more of design decision than practical one. My phone has a taller screen than 16:9 so when I watch videos there are black bars on the sides anyway - although my previous phone had aspect ratio perfectly matching the cinema one, making movies truly full-screen (minus rounded corners and the front camera). When I'm doing literally anything else, the buttons are displayed on the bottom of the screen. Some of my friends use gestures and actually that does give them extra screen space, but IMO gestures are less convenient and totally not worth it.
But when you show this on a demo it does look neat, especially with a game.
Give me back physical buttons please.
Melatonic 4 hours ago [-]
First thing I do is delete all homescreen icons and widgets and any extra homescreens
Does this do anything else ? Or make the app list when you go fully right different ?
delis-thumbs-7e 6 hours ago [-]
Thank you. I need to try if this helps my mom survive smart phones.
bawolff 18 hours ago [-]
> My son only gets Calls, Messages, Maps, Camera (so we can video call, but I've ruthlessly turned off selfies), Photos, and Music. Nothing else.
I get that the internet is an addictive scary place with lots of content potentially dangerous to a young person.
But why would you care if your child took a selfie? That seems pretty draconian.
isomorphic 18 hours ago [-]
I'm speculating that it's not the selfie; it's where that selfie ends up (or with whom).
kelnos 18 hours ago [-]
OP apparently still hasn't learned that the kids today are taking selfies "blind" using the rear camera.
rescbr 15 hours ago [-]
My first phone that had a (rear) camera 20 years ago also had a chrome-plated mirror thing to help us take selfies. I guess nobody called them selfies then.
I guess point and shoot cameras also had those mirrors back then.
Glad to know that kids rediscovered camera selfies.
lemoncucumber 17 hours ago [-]
I do this myself (albeit pretty rarely) since the rear camera is significantly better than the front camera, especially in low light.
robocat 17 hours ago [-]
Your comment led me to the Insta360 device that makes it easy to take selfies with the main camera:
Wait, not being able to make a picture of yourself is pretty draconian? In this case, the world before smartphones was a living Hell on Earth.
bawolff 15 hours ago [-]
Fun fact: cameras have existed long before cellphones (let alone smart phones)
Its draconian not because selfies are a fundamental need, but because they seem harmless. Rules should be justifiable.
delis-thumbs-7e 6 hours ago [-]
The bloody kid can take up some nice linen canvas, few sticks or charcoal, oil paint, turpentine and bloody paint his selfie! If it was good enough for Caravaggio, it is good enough for you!
hamper653 7 hours ago [-]
[dead]
eigencoder 17 hours ago [-]
Also, it doesn't add up. How would Camera let you video call? Don't you need Facetime?
My favourite feature was using TTS to learn how to read very very long numbers …
jorisw 5 hours ago [-]
TTS meaning...
me_vinayakakv 5 hours ago [-]
Text to Speech
LadyCailin 5 hours ago [-]
Text to speech
laweijfmvo 16 hours ago [-]
I discovered and tried to use this feature to turn an older iPhone into a dumb phone for myself, but hit several blockers
1. It’s incredibly slow to transition in and out of the mode, as mentioned in the article, which made setting it up (constant tweaks) very painful
2. For messages and calls, you were limited to select contacts only. So I couldn’t just text/call a number when I needed to.
They may have polished the feature since then, but given that it’s an Accessibility feature and was never meant to receive much attention in this regard, it may always be half-baked.
doublebash 16 hours ago [-]
I just tested #2 on iOS 27 Developer Beta, and this has been resolved. You can select “anyone” instead of specific contacts.
kspacewalk2 16 hours ago [-]
#2 seems like a feature, not a bug. I certainly don't want my 11 year old texting/calling unapproved numbers, way too young for that.
subarctic 15 hours ago [-]
Definitely a feature, but also ruins it for this person's use case
asdff 13 hours ago [-]
The kids going to be driving a car in 3 years...
judge2020 16 hours ago [-]
now that it has received attention, Apple might just throw another engineer at it :)
matthewfcarlson 13 hours ago [-]
Eh I’ve filed a few bugs a few years ago and they seem to have been ignored. I tried it for a while and it crashed my phone frequently. My gut says it’s a hack, hence the performance issues.
eigencoder 17 hours ago [-]
I like the feature, but I don't like the assumption at the beginning.
> Come September, he will have to walk across town to school on his own. But if he's going to be walking around out in the world without me, then a tracking tag won't cut it. He is far too young to have unfettered access to the internet and social media platforms, but what if he gets lost? A classic Nokia, supplying just texts and calls, won't come to his aid. Maps and satnav require a web connection.
What if he gets lost? With a classic Nokia, he could still call someone and get help. Or, he might (heaven forbid) just need to ask someone for help. Or walk around until he remembers where he is. These are all good skills to learn.
judge2020 16 hours ago [-]
Only issue is that kids going outside alone has become highly stigmatized in society to the point where doing so gets you jailed and charged[0].
The kid will grow up to almost always be able to contact most any human in the world. Knowing how and when to do that is probably going to be a more useful skill.
Side note: As above article states, after this arrest SB110 was passed to specifically outline what is reasonable for this situation.
rkangel 5 hours ago [-]
> has become highly stigmatized in society
When making claims like this, please remember that this is a very international group of people and scope your point appropriately: "has become highly stigmatized in the US"
This is not a problem in large parts of Europe (can't comment about elsewhere). The reason this scoping is important is because the solutions are different for "this is a problem in all of society" compared to "this is a problem in the US".
wpm 17 hours ago [-]
the idea of tagging my kid with a tracker like they're a wild bird being tracked is repugnant
moralestapia 17 hours ago [-]
Just a suggestion, be more mindful when you make comments involving other people's kids.
(which is generally a no-no unless you're invited to)
On the internet is fine, but I've been to places around the world where a comment like that would result in black eyes, missing teeth, etc.
wongarsu 16 hours ago [-]
Kids are living beings. If people don't want to hear about how they paint their car that's one thing. But if they don't want to hear any comments on how they treat a fellow human that's very concerning
walt_grata 17 hours ago [-]
What did they actually say about some's kida?
Knocking out someones teeth would necessitate filing charges
moralestapia 17 hours ago [-]
Oh, absolutely! I would just prefer to avoid all of that.
wpm 17 hours ago [-]
you should be having words with people who would turn to violence on such a short fuse then, not me and my comment that didn't even say anything about anyone elses kids
thatmf 17 hours ago [-]
I'm very curious as to what places of the world that would be.
moralestapia 17 hours ago [-]
Oh, it's a very long list. It could be anywhere actually, by "place" I didn't mean something like a specific city, but more of a place in a city where that situation would most likely unfold.
Anyway, I don't want to derail the conversation too much, this is a very interesting topic but it is off-topic.
If you want to keep talking about it send me an email! Info on my profile :).
rTX5CMRXIfFG 17 hours ago [-]
Eh, people who write about their parenting in the internet are opening it for comments
17 hours ago [-]
not_a_hacker123 8 hours ago [-]
Wow, you didn't even read the comment you were responding to
baxtr 17 hours ago [-]
We had some friends over last form the US. One 11 yr kid in the group was bored and said: ok I’m gonna go home now, I need the keys please.
He walked home by himself - maybe 500 meters… For us Europeans it was nothing to notice really, but the Americans were absolutely shocked.
bombcar 17 hours ago [-]
And I've been where the Americans had some friends over from the US, and the 11/12 year olds grabbed some rifles and said they'd be back tomorrow. The Americans barely noticed, the Europeans flipped.
America is big, and parts of it can be very different.
conductr 7 hours ago [-]
As an American reading your comment, it’s because we drive everywhere and my initial thought is he’s asking for the car keys
That distance for a walk should be seen as fine by most Americans at that age. Although, I find it’s rare that we socialize much with people that close. Those would be neighbors and neighbors aren’t frequently socializing to this degree.
jkestner 17 hours ago [-]
I don’t think you can profile this as American. Are they conservative suburbanites? My kid walks to/from school longer than that. Many kids take public transit in big cities. Rural kids may ride a motorbike much further.
odo1242 16 hours ago [-]
Well, it is a pretty American thing for this to be the case. Americans have been arrested for letting kids walk 500 meters on their own before (in certain neighborhoods)
jkestner 15 hours ago [-]
Like Europe, the US has a pastiche of laws across states and municipalities, and varying levels of enforcement. My state has laws protecting free-range children.
You’re probably right that only in the US do people freak out over unaccompanied kids, but I wouldn’t say that’s true of most of the country.
refurb 10 hours ago [-]
That says more about the people you were with than America.
I see plenty of 11 year olds in the US without any parental supervision while in public.
I mean kids get jobs at 12?
nixosbestos 17 hours ago [-]
This stuff truly makes my head spin. How do these people think humanity came to be, to today? Do they understand we in historically safe times? I thought the pendulum was swinging back on helicopter parents but some adults, some HN adults, have more money and tech-bias than common sense, or self-awareness, or any awareness of what they're doing to the children. And then remarking that they get around those restrictions. DUH?! Jesus, do some people here struggle this much to remember their own childhoods???
jkestner 15 hours ago [-]
If it bleeds, it leads. That is, our media has hyped up violence in society as it’s become more rare, and politicians use it to scare people into thinking we need to go back to the good old days.
fma 19 hours ago [-]
>children have quickly found workarounds for such measures, such as asking friends to message them links, which can bypass restrictions when opened
I was very surprised of this by my own kids find workarounds like l33t hackers. Apple's restrictions are a joke. The app store is full of things they can mess with. My daughter mentioned some way to get around screen time.
I've ended up just taking the iPads away.
Grombobulous 18 hours ago [-]
When I was a kid my parents wouldn’t give me a cellphone. I wanted to call my girlfriend. Well, really, my girlfriend wanted me to call her. A lot.
They didn’t give me one.
I ended up finding a way to get my own through a more apathetic adult who I could pay cash to cover my bill (only an extra $10/month on a family plan).
I certainly am not telling you to just cave in, but perhaps this story can be a reminder that technology you control is potentially better than technology you don’t.
bawolff 18 hours ago [-]
What age groups are we talking here, because if we're talking about a 7 year old, giving them unfettered screen time is probably bad parenting. However if we are talking about someone old enough to have gf/bf its probably also bad parenting to not let them develop their own self control around technology. They have to be an adult eventually.
hamburglar 17 hours ago [-]
I started my kid at 12 with an extremely locked down iPhone. She fights the restrictions at every turn and I have to make sure that she understands that finding loopholes is fun but also if I catch her violating the spirit of the restrictions there will be consequences. So she proudly tells me about clever workarounds she finds but still puts the phone away at the appropriate times. It’s kind of fun that she’s developing an instinct for subversion.
JoeBOFH 17 hours ago [-]
That’s how we handle it with ours as well. He found a way around a certain control and we opened a bug report with the vendor and it was acknowledged and fixed. He then realized he locked out other kids with that and laughed and tries to find more worth reporting.
lostlogin 17 hours ago [-]
Is that black hat or white hat?
vlovich123 16 hours ago [-]
Chaotic hat
Grombobulous 18 hours ago [-]
I was a teenager, if that wasn’t clear. But I was more of the mindset of lending a story, I can’t say whether or not it’s relevant to the parent commenter’s scenario.
kelipso 17 hours ago [-]
I don’t think “one can get around rules” is a very insightful thing to say, it’s just a truism.
bawolff 6 hours ago [-]
Just because someone can get around rules doesn't neccesarily mean they will want to.
Forgeties79 17 hours ago [-]
They’re talking about the relative ineffectiveness of prohibition when it comes to teenagers. Generally speaking, they’re right. And the implication is therefore “don’t just blanket ban your way through screen time restrictions.”
It’s a bit more nuanced than “one can get around the rules.
kelipso 9 hours ago [-]
There are kids under 18 who drink and plenty under 21 who drink. Still a very good idea to ban under 18 drinking, and not a terrible idea to ban under 21 drinking. You can do this for lots of rules and laws.
So yeah, they're basically saying "one can get around the rules" and nothing more than that. Therefore, there is no argument here, just a truism.
Forgeties79 16 minutes ago [-]
>relative ineffectiveness
>generally speaking
I felt like I couched and prefaced enough that somebody wouldn’t read this and go “this guy thinks you literally can’t ban teens from anything ever,” which is a ridiculous stance that no reasonable person would hold. I’ll be more explicit in the future.
Wholesale banning teens from screens is generally highly ineffective, like many but not all things people try to prohibit at that age. It leads to their seeking it elsewhere, perhaps in less safe environments and certainly with less guidance. It also means they won’t communicate about it with their parents, which has a lot of bad secondary effects.
Personally, if my kid experiences or witnesses something disturbing (or illegal/potentially dangerous) when they are young, I want to make sure the lines of communication stay open between us so I can help - or at least help them process it - when they need me.
TL;DR: banning smartphones when they can easily access them elsewhere is almost certainly going to end in a net negative. I am not saying we can’t ban anything. That is a ridiculous interpretation of my comment. I hope this clears that up for you.
JumpCrisscross 16 hours ago [-]
Yup. I think American culture is broadly too permissive with under-14s and too restrictive with over-14s (but under-21s).
mc3301 13 hours ago [-]
I told my elementary-age child that they can have a phone when they are old enough to sneakily buy one without me knowing.
mrandish 16 hours ago [-]
We didn't give our kid her own phone until a few months past her 13th birthday. She was at a private elementary school since kindergarten and her class was small and mostly had the same kids from K-8, so the parents got to know each other early on and there was general agreement on 'no phones until 13'. This greatly reduced the "but so-and-so has one".
Forgeties79 17 hours ago [-]
Who said it had to be unfettered?
szundi 18 hours ago [-]
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sublinear 17 hours ago [-]
What's stopping them from getting a burner device anyway? Imposing too much control can push them away, but a lack of direction can also make them wander.
All you can do is nudge and try not to worry too much. It's certain there are other influences in their life you don't know about.
hamper653 7 hours ago [-]
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Aurornis 17 hours ago [-]
Australia was one of the first countries to institute social media bans under a certain age. Reading the reports and commentary from parents there has been fascinating, but not really surprising if you remember what it's like to be a kid.
The most positive thing I read was that the kids are spending less time on social media in front of adults (like at the dinner table) because they're not supposed to be on social media.
But most of the parents in the article I read believed their kids had circumvented the ban somehow. Their problem now was that the kids' social media use was entirely hidden from them and they had no way to monitor it or even bring it up with their kids. The kids didn't want to admit to using social media at all.
None of this should be very surprising for any of us who remember back into childhood. Circumventing the restrictions was a game with its own reward. I had friends who were finding ways to get around the school's internet controls for the fun of doing it, not because it blocked any sites they wanted to use.
OkayPhysicist 16 hours ago [-]
I was definitely that kid. I remember discovering that my district's web filter had a default password (something like "changethis123"), by watching one substitute with exceptionally poor typing skills. Problem was, substitutes' accounts were disabled frequently, and any one account only really had a lifetime of a week or two, before someone in the IT department realized that 300 devices were connecting to the network with the same credentials.
But the staff lists were public, and I had the default password. So I set up a script to turn the lists of names of teachers, librarians, janitors, etc. into usernames, and then tried to login with all of them. Turns out, most support staff, especially custodians, hadn't changed their passwords. (I'm guessing their jobs didn't involve much computer use). With a list of a couple dozen working accounts, I'd mete out 1 or 2 at a time to my friends, and we had teacher-level access for the rest of our time there. Don't remember using it for much, maybe showing my friends a youtube video during lunch or something.
MoonWalk 15 hours ago [-]
This demonstrates why forcing people to use E-mail addresses as user IDs is a stupid, stupid policy.
tsimionescu 10 hours ago [-]
Usernames are almost always quasi public knowledge, even when they're not email addresses. The problem here was the existence of a default password, not the fact that you could figure out usernames.
Marsymars 16 hours ago [-]
The upside of well-crafted social media bans for kids under a certain age is that you can use them to apply financial pain to social media companies for failing to prevent kids from signing up.
Aurornis 16 hours ago [-]
Applying stiff financial penalties for allowing kids to sign up for social media sites is another way of saying that you want to have to provide your ID to log in to social sites.
Reddit, YouTube, Discord, and even Hacker News qualify as social sites. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to start providing ID to log in to everything.
If you think these imaginary laws would only apply to Facebook and TikTok, you must have missed all of the discussion where they've been extended to many more sites with social features. Goodbye privacy!
Marsymars 16 hours ago [-]
> If you think these imaginary laws would only apply to Facebook and TikTok
We can literally write "these laws apply only apply to Facebook and TikTok" into the laws.
Or base it on sites that have advertising. Products/services that are targeted to minors shouldn't be permitted to have advertisements anyway.
I don't find "We've done a bad job with X so we should abandon X rather than attempting to do X better" to be a compelling argument on its own.
Aurornis 15 hours ago [-]
> We can literally write "these laws apply only apply to Facebook and TikTok" into the laws.
I don’t find it useful to imagine laws like this. This isn’t what happens in real law making.
I’m talking about real, actual laws that are getting passed.
It’s not going to be perfectly targeted at websites you don’t use while leaving everything you like free, open, and privacy preserving.
It’s really important that we’re being realistic and honest about this. Inviting bad laws into the internet with fantasies about how they’ll be carefully scoped and limited to other websites is not realistic.
Marsymars 14 hours ago [-]
The DMA designated gatekeepers seems to be pretty well-targeted as a real law that's currently on the books.
It applies solely to Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, ByteDance, Meta and Microsoft.
Aurornis 13 hours ago [-]
Going by that list, YouTube and GitHub would be impacted. They have social features and primarily host user-generated content.
Imagining that these laws will be precisely written to avoid any services you like is a dangerous fallacy. That's how people rationalize bad laws.
Remember when all of the surveillance laws were only going to target the terrorists? Look how far that drifted.
tsimionescu 10 hours ago [-]
What would be the point? If the goal is to "protect the children", then banning only 2 companies from providing social media to kids will do nothing after at most a few years - kids will just move on to the new social media that is not yet banned.
Of course, this says nothing about the many kids who will be hurt by being denied access to social media, such as the many gay or trans kids living in conservative families that found some solace in online communities that would accept the real selves they otherwise have to hide.
hamper653 7 hours ago [-]
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wrs 18 hours ago [-]
When my friend's kids were totally obsessed with League of Legends, I offered to set up a home firewall with increasingly difficult workarounds, so by the time they graduated high school they'd at least have a cybersecurity certificate and possibly a Ph.D in networking.
jaggederest 18 hours ago [-]
Adversarially train the children, rlai works on human brains too?
NuclearPM 17 hours ago [-]
That’s how 80s kids learned computers and programming. Trying to install a game and having to lookup what the hell “fat32” was.
breppp 17 hours ago [-]
HIMEM.SYS and EMM386.EXE you mean :-)
hamburglar 17 hours ago [-]
Dude. 80’s kids think of FAT32 as that new filesystem that supports more than 8.3.
senko 17 hours ago [-]
You guys had filesystems??
fragmede 8 hours ago [-]
They don't have them any more. There's just a "recents" and a search bar.
imp0cat 17 hours ago [-]
Nope, just fat. ;)
boredatoms 18 hours ago [-]
My childhood was filled with increasing escalations of restrictions to both the computer and the network, and my workarounds.
Excellent education
flippyhead 19 hours ago [-]
I found it such a hassle to keep locked down I gave up. Like, he'd be so aware that he'd find ways to watch me enter the PIN code when adjusting the settings. I'd have to be ever-vigilant and I got tired of it.
PrimalPower 17 hours ago [-]
I've concluded the only way to avoid workarounds it to reduce my own screen time. I stopped having a tablet myself. Got off the Iphone too.
I still need some smartphone for work. Got the smallest one possible so at least games aren't really fun.
qup 19 hours ago [-]
Try discipline
roboror 16 hours ago [-]
Children don't have fully formed brains. There's a wildly varying ceiling on the efficacy of discipline.
nielsbot 18 hours ago [-]
curious kind of discipline you have in mind.
kelnos 18 hours ago [-]
Time-honored punishment: revoke various privileges for periods of time until they get it.
In this case, seems pretty topical to just take the phone away entirely for a few days.
qup 16 hours ago [-]
When kids break the rules about screen time, there are consequences.
Not Dad fiddling with the settings, but instead Dad teaching a lesson about respecting the rules, and doing what you said you would do (children agree to obey the time limits in order to have access to the device).
How Dad should teach the lesson varies by family and by child.
mc3301 13 hours ago [-]
Is it okay if Mom teaches the lessons about respecting the rules?
mplewis 18 hours ago [-]
No one asked.
organsnyder 18 hours ago [-]
Back in elementary school, I used Applescript in Hypercard to get around the restrictions on our school computers. Kids always find ways.
adamwk 18 hours ago [-]
We were once 1337 hackers too
robin_reala 17 hours ago [-]
A friend was woken up by his young kid trying to surreptitiously lever his finger onto the TouchID sensor to pay for a game dlc.
NetOpWibby 17 hours ago [-]
LMAO incredible
krupan 16 hours ago [-]
You can lock them out of the app store completely, and only allow a list of approved domains that can browse to. I also had it shut everything down at 10pm so they couldn't spend all night trying to find workarounds. Worked really well, but it did require some work on my part to manage the installed apps and allowed domains though
zer00eyz 17 hours ago [-]
As a late Gen X I grew up when the "it's 10pm do you know where your kids are" ad's ran. When "just say no" was all I heard for a decade. When sex ed was marginally controversial. Honestly, I remain shocked that I never got arrested for some of my shenanigans. The rest of it was drinking, drugs and partying.
I was candid with my kids about what I did in my youth, I was also honest with them about how terrible the tech was. They also got unfettered access to it (tech), and there were lots of conversations and consequences around its (mis)use.
Given the history of "abstinence only" sex ed, and "just say no" drug campaigns, and their massive failures; just not letting them have it seemed like it was going to create the problems that many are looking to avoid.
As they have moved into adulthood they have taken those lessons to heart, and are now the ones who complain about their peers and their abuses of social media and inability to self moderate. These same conversations continue now, with the added topic of AI -
cynicalsecurity 17 hours ago [-]
You are teaching your children to be even more secretive and hide things from you even better.
platevoltage 16 hours ago [-]
Great. They are learning good security culture. That will be useful later in life when every move they make will be surveilled.
16 hours ago [-]
basisword 19 hours ago [-]
It seems like Apple put a big focus on 'kids mode' things this WWDC. To the point they dedicated a major section of the keynote to it. Hopefully a part of that will be focussed on the workarounds.
turkeyboi 18 hours ago [-]
Assistive access is the feature being referred to by tfa
jorisw 5 hours ago [-]
From the docs, looks like you can't use third party apps with this, meaning WhatsApp, Signal, etc can't work. With pre-existing use of those apps, that's kind of a deal breaker for elderly, who I was hoping to use this for.
No, you can add any app you want. It’s just that the app will not change and has no simplified UI like the first-party apps.
pugworthy 19 hours ago [-]
This might be just the thing for my elderly mother. She's used an iPhone for many many years, but struggles lately with motor dexterity, vision, and a bit of cognitive challenge making phone usage difficult. Lots of things I'd like to just hide she doesn't need to get to (like Settings).
hapticmonkey 14 hours ago [-]
Just a reminder to anyone reading that accessibility features are not just for other people but they are for our future selves. Growing old, getting injured etc are things that will happen to us all.
Going to go and give my mum a call now!
_carbyau_ 9 hours ago [-]
When tech companies understand presbyopia is a thing then I will believe accessibility is given more than a token gesture.
Affected world population:
"Whereas the presbyopic population is expected to increase from approximately 2.1 billion people currently2 to more than 4 billion people in 2050 (approximately 40% of the world’s population)3"
In the exact same boat with my mother in law at the moment. I was thinking of getting her one of those android for elderly phones but wanted to see if I could do something with her existing iphone first. At this point, anything that is recognizable is a plus so sticking with the iPhone will help there.
There are so many features under “accessibility” that have wider usages.
frereubu 14 hours ago [-]
I'm co-owner of an agency that builds websites, and we have a phrase that "accessibility is for everyone". Like you say, there are so many accessibility settings that can make things easier to use for anyone, from simple things like reduced motion to more complex things like colour filters.
650REDHAIR 15 hours ago [-]
I use the back tap feature for shortcuts and have my iPad auto-answer FaceTime calls when I’m out so I can check in on the dogs.
Lots of neat features hiding beneath the surface!
whycome 9 hours ago [-]
I have the back tap trigger a shortcut to give me a list of my most used things. I’ve used gestures to let me use a remote keyboard turn the pages on an ebook and I’ve also used it to let me remotely swipe short videos. I’ve used the vehicle motion cues. I’ve set an action to bring up the TTS reader. I even had the eye tracking do stuff for me.
650REDHAIR 8 hours ago [-]
Eye tracking is not something I’ve considered! Neat!
cmrx64 15 hours ago [-]
i consider it the root menu of the phone
hans_castorp 15 hours ago [-]
> Maps and satnav require a web connection.
No they don't require a network at all. The only drawback if there is no network is that the initial finding of the position takes longer. And maps can be downloaded so that they are available offline.
GPS receiver have been working without a "web connection" for ages (e.g. Garmins outdoor devices).
I use my smartphone in "airplane" mode but GPS enabled when hiking. No problems whatsoever.
walrus01 15 hours ago [-]
At least on Android there's a fair number of apps like "osmand" which can download an entire state, province or country vector/map data, in their own semi-proprietary data format derived from public openstreetmap, for truly offline use anywhere you have a GPS signal. It'll even work on a phone that has no SIM card in it.
I've wanted for quite a long time to write an Android app like that. Use Kiosk mode (basically a locked down home screen) to turn the Android phone into a dumb phone.
butz 17 hours ago [-]
This is actually a really great feature for everyone else trying to reduce their phone use without switching to different "dumbphone". But why mandatory lock by passcode? I agree, that adding more friction would prevent user to switch back to standard UI, but still - it should be optional.
jorisw 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah I bailed out of this when it asked me to change my 8 digit passcode to a 4 to 6 digit passcode
1970-01-01 18 hours ago [-]
'Perfect' being used as a filler word in a headline is obscene to me.
Aboutplants 16 hours ago [-]
I really wish settings could be downloaded and implemented like transferring Bookmarks in browsers. That way I could take a setup of settings someone has created and simply mimic that by way of adopting all of the same settings in one fell swoop.
It would break the anxiety barrier of having to finagle with a bunch of different settings which exists for a lot of people believe it or not.Or Apple could just make it easier to implement these types of features much easier.
This looks perfect! I had been searching around for “feature phones” but the market seems dire. Lots of carrier locked devices or devices that still offer “a little bit of internet”. And then I started thinking about finding a repair shop when my kid inevitably breaks it and an old iPhone keeps looking better and better.
Plus when my kids lose it in a bag somewhere I can use find my instead of wasting an hour digging around.
propter_hoc 12 hours ago [-]
Idk, Google Family Link seems much more powerful and easy to manage to me. I guess it doesn't have the six giant icons launcher, but my seven-year-old has no issues with normal sized icons or text.
thatmf 17 hours ago [-]
For some reason when I opened this the sound of a helicopter hovering shook the walls.
> Come September, he will have to walk across town to school on his own.
*THE HORROR*
> But if he's going to be walking around out in the world without me, then a tracking tag won't cut it.
Uhhhhhhhhh. The way this is stated so plainly as if it were self-evident fact is telling. The author longs for the umbilical cord.
> but what if he gets lost?
What if he learns a life lesson, navigation and/or some form of self-reliance or independence?
I just... no wonder Kids Today are so cooked.
wewewedxfgdf 12 hours ago [-]
Looks good for old people too. My mom can no longer grasp anything but the most simple tech, and even then...
Triphibian 17 hours ago [-]
I keep observing that accessibility features often contain the tools we need to make our devices and apps more humane. This is one area that video games have been way ahead on.
msftgreed 14 hours ago [-]
Videogames are generally lagging WAY behind the rest of software. I've worked professionally in accessibility and in AAA game studios.
There's a lot of movement in games over the past 5-10 years, so there's a lot more visibility into a11y there, but in general that industry still has catching up to do. What you are seeing is higher interest and velocity there, and given some time they'll definitely catch up with the slower iteration cycles in mobile and web a11y, but I guarantee you the story is much richer on the web (in particular) than it is in games.
turtlebits 16 hours ago [-]
It's still a smartphone.
The perfect dumb phone is just a dumb phone. (Bonus, they're an order of magnitude cheaper than a decent smartphone).
EdwinRobbins 16 hours ago [-]
Similar initial thought, but in the article they say they want their kid to be able to use maps apps to be able to navigate if they get lost.
Waterluvian 17 hours ago [-]
Sometimes I imagine that the mandate of one team (like those that build accessibility features) end up at direct odds with the mandate for other teams. And then there’s maybe an internal politicking where it’s like… okay you can have that feature that completely subverts a lot of how we want users to be behaving, but you can’t market it loudly.
I have no clue how things are actually structured at Apple, though. But I’m sure at this level of product maturity, there’s going to be internal struggles between user friendliness and profitability.
morninglight 18 hours ago [-]
While living in Japan, our kid used a cellphone with 3 buttons.
1. Call mom, 2. Call dad. 3. Call Auntie.
These kid's phones were very common, inexpensive and worked great.
imp0cat 17 hours ago [-]
There is an entire ecosystem of kid's watches which do exactly that. Pretty much just a miniature cellphone with restricted functions that goes on the wrist like some sort of a tracking collar.
j45 3 hours ago [-]
This is a great use of a feature.
Still a touch screen, those aren't always the best for kids to tap away furiously on.
phyzome 13 hours ago [-]
That's a bad use of a very expensive phone. Get an actual dumb phone that's vastly cheaper.
> what if he gets lost?
Then he can look at street signs, ask someone nearby for directions, or (and this is an option I didn't have as a kid)... call someone. On the phone. That he has.
jorisw 5 hours ago [-]
A dumb phone wouldn't offer Find My (kid)
bitwize 18 hours ago [-]
It's like At Ease for mobile. Neat!
m463 19 hours ago [-]
This seems like a much more comprehensive solution than screen time
al_borland 17 hours ago [-]
ScreenTime is for limiting and monitoring access to certain things for those who can otherwise handle a modern smartphone. Assistive Access is to remove the complexity for those who can't handle it. They are for different use cases, with some overlap in the venn diagram.
SlavikCA 15 hours ago [-]
Does Android have this feature?
Cider9986 15 hours ago [-]
On Androids with Google Play Serivces, I assume you can use an MDM tool to achieve a similar effect.
ThePowerOfFuet 7 hours ago [-]
>Maps and satnav require a web connection.
Comaps sure doesn't.
mvdwoord 19 hours ago [-]
"You must disable SIM PIN to enable Assistive Access..."
05 18 hours ago [-]
Also refuses to activate with alphanumeric passcode enabled..
sbayg 17 hours ago [-]
I could sort of imagine plausible reasons for that, but not allowing sim pin seems… nonobvious.
mdavidn 15 hours ago [-]
Wow. I was reading this article on a iPhone when the heavy ads crashed my Safari tab. After it auto-reloaded, the paywall claimed I had used all of my free articles. Thanks, Wired.
happyopossum 16 hours ago [-]
> Crucially, this is where, unlike with Apple’s standard child screen-time restrictions, you can choose to completely block internet browsing by simply not allowing Safari
Very odd take given that you can block access to safari with iOS screen time as well...
50208 18 hours ago [-]
His kid doesn't need a phone and doesn't need to be tracked to walk to school. Get over it.
abeyer 18 hours ago [-]
Yup, came to say this.
Kids have learned to walk places on their own without maps or satnav or tracking for hundreds of thousands of years. I believe everyone would benefit from that continuing. We don't teach kids that the only way to do arithmetic is with a calculator... they learn first, then get a tool that can support what they already know. Why do we think we should do it differently here, and train this learned helplessness without a phone glued to your hand. I suspect a lot of this is projection of the parents' own discomfort with being away from their phone.
philips 18 hours ago [-]
As I parent I am downvoting this because I am quite tired of others judging parents and their technology choices- particularly when it comes to restrictions.
Parenting is hard. Parenting when everything is changing so quickly is very difficult.
abeyer 15 hours ago [-]
My 2c is that I'm not judging the parents, I'm judging the outputs I've seen of people raised on phones...and that's something that impacts everyone in our society. If you think you can do better, I guess go for it, but I haven't seen it
Parenting is also a strictly optional hard-mode that you choose to switch on knowing full well there's an 18 year cooldown before you can switch it off again.
eigencoder 17 hours ago [-]
Yeah, but your kid can also walk to school without a map, it's not a big deal.
littlecranky67 17 hours ago [-]
Way I see it, most parents give their kids early access to phones just to keep them sedated and occupied. There is zero benefit for under 14yo to have unrestricted access to the smartphone or internet. It only benefits the parents.
floren 17 hours ago [-]
It's so damn easy to hit "pause" on the kid by turning on the TV or handing over a phone, but the result is so apparent: demands for more phone or more TV.
adrr 14 hours ago [-]
Give your kid some quarters so they can call you on a pay phone like the old days.
MandieD 5 hours ago [-]
That'd be fine if there were any payphones still around...
philips 18 hours ago [-]
As a parent I want a phone I can find because kids will lose a phone.
So, Find My is invaluable for locating it again.
win311fwg 17 hours ago [-]
The kid doesn't need it, but the parents need the kid to have it on him to appease the bored onlookers one digit away from calling the authorities.
dwa3592 15 hours ago [-]
my iphone is already kind of dumb. i don't have any social media apps. i have all notifications turned off (except ringtone for call). i only use my phone for calling and texting. it feels very expensive for those 2 operations. but i have the choice of downloading whatever shit i want to download.
testerteert000a 17 hours ago [-]
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xbryanx 19 hours ago [-]
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kakacik 17 hours ago [-]
While all one needz in such case is new commodore (yes, that commodore) flip phone.
Whatsapp, google maps, calls, sms. No browser, no store, no bullshit. Kids dont need more, if parents dont want to ruin (part of) their childhood. No need for restrictive apple ecosystem neither.
citizenpaul 19 hours ago [-]
>Yes, it's odd that Apple doesn't train all its store staff on this laudable feature, but it's baffling that it doesn't shout about how good Assistive Access is for making a kid's dumb phone.
My guess is that its a bad look for PR to essentially say that a feature designed for disability assistance = children.
msftgreed 14 hours ago [-]
Do you use curb cuts? Closed captions? Difficulty sliders in games? An electric toothbrush? Audible crosswalk signals?
All of those have significant roots in accessibility for people with disabilities. I guarantee you that the people who invented them would be thrilled to see them have widespread adoption for all populations.
If something finds use in addition to its use for disability amelioration, it becomes more widespread and normalized. When it's wider spread and normalized, it becomes easier for people with disabilities to know it's available and to use it without stigma.
So no, you've got it entirely backwards I'm afraid. We do not think about assistive technology as something for people with disabilities. We think about it as something that helps people, and if it helps more people, even better.
We love to see accessibility features find uses outside their original intent.
Generally we only refer to someone with a permanent disability as “disabled” but in reality we are all disabled in various categories at different times of our lives. Accessibility is important to all three groups (you need to be able to use your phone with one hand), therefore accessibility is important to everyone.
Honestly, what's the difference between a wheelchair and prescription glasses? Both are medical devices prescribed be a healthcare professional to assist with a physical impairment.
Now, I think the assumed way to get in is to keep the door open with your body while simultaneously lifting the rollator over both thresholds. This requires considerable strength, as you have to reach far with a heavy weight. Maybe an athlete could do it. Not an old exhausted person.
An old person needs to first leave the rollator out, open the door and make it so it stays open with a hook. Involves crouching and working with your hands close to the ground. Then lift the rollator one by one over the steps and go inside. Then come back out and close the door.
A foot operated door stopper and a few slopes could probably ease that up tremendously.
Which itself is kind of an interesting example of how these things should work, because the curbs are maintained by the government, so the compliance cost is getting paid by the taxpayer.
Which is as it should be, because if something is to be required as a public benefit then it should be paid for out of public funds rather than as an unfunded mandate. Then thing like curb cuts continue to be a good deal so people are happy to fund them, whereas measures that cost more than they're worth get the level of opposition that they should because the taxpayer has to pay for them. And either way you would stop stressing smaller companies and causing market consolidation by increasing compliance costs.
The fact that compliance costs outprices some smaller companies rather shows that we as a society prefer to have accomodations, than live in one where such accomodations are only affordable to the affluent.
Not at all, it just happens that we're already doing the right thing in that case because it wasn't possible to stick the wrong party with the bill.
> The fact that compliance costs outprices some smaller companies rather shows that we as a society prefer to have accomodations, than live in one where such accomodations are only affordable to the affluent.
It isn't the consumers being priced out, it's the producers. Which in turn causes the market to consolidate so that only the affluent can afford the big company monopolist's product anyway, and everyone else not only doesn't get accommodations but can't even afford the product or service anymore. Housing is a solid example of this; unfunded mandates make construction significantly more expensive and now millions of people can't afford a home.
Whereas if the taxpayer had to fund everything the government mandates, the mandates would have to account for the cost directly rather than hiding it inside the price of everything else, allowing people to make better choices about which ones are worth what they cost.
I saw a sibling comment mentioning about the drop curbs making the path awkwardly angled. Yeah they can be a real pain. Pushing a pram along on an angled path is hell on the wrists. But a lot of the troublesome ones are the wider ones for people to get their cars up to their front door.
Makes you think about how hard just going down the road with a wheelchair is.
Try going for a run along a pavement with frequent curb cuts, it's not pleasant. UK dropped curbs are somewhat less of a trip hazard but are so frequent in towns that you end up running with an ankle at an angle.
One "weird" complaint that I have with some accessibility features is that they mount things so that wheelchair users (and children) can operate them, e.g. a ATM mounted at groin height. I'm fairly tall so now I struggle to operate them or have to bend in unnatural angles. It's a small price to pay to make the world navigable to others, but almost daily I run into things that "are clearly designed by idiots". That is until I remember that the average person is below 180cm and right handed.
Even if this is not the case for some weird reason - don't you agree that making the world a little bit more accessible for people who have a really hard time getting around is worth making the world just a tiny little bit less accessible for you - the person who can litterally run around?
If you have a considerable problem with tripping often though, maybe look at how you do running.
Just make sure you alternate which side of the road you are running on somewhat evenly so you are getting the benefit on both sides.
My most unpleasant experience so far has been during my daily public heavy deadlifting routine. When I place my barbell on the edge of the curb, which my particular style of lifting requires, it's placed at an angle so my back got messed up and it's all the fault of these curb cutting measures.
It's all fine and dandy you want to assist children and handicapped people, but it'll be at the expense of regular users of the pavement which use it for completely sane and normal activities.
My conclusion, as always, is that U.S.-Americans and Brits do not walk. Otherwise these design choices do not make any sense.
All you need is a macbook and Apple Configurator.
You can remove safari, blacklist or whitelist websites, block installing apps, block deleting apps. It's really customizable.
Edit: expanded acronym.
It turns a complicated phone into a much more simple one. Both kids and the elderly can benefit from it.
My only issue is that the was only introduced in 2024, so older iPhones can’t benefit.
Looking forward to MDM support on GrapheneOS.
It sucks.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45171200 iPhone dumbphone 10 months ago 399 comments
Is it really not possible to do this with a non-Apple machine?
For instance I have recently seen a very successful Apple MDM deployment in a school environment where the teachers and staff have access to a great depth and breadth of PII of a thousand children under age 16. You don't want all those phones to become a free-for-all of people doing whatever they want.
The only issue is BYOD via MDM (when it's not via "Work Profile"), which is somewhat scary from a user perspective, especially from how hard it is to tell what permissions they might be able to spring on you at any time.
Company's Outlook, Teams, MS Authenticator and Slack on my personal phone? Ehhhh fine.
The second IT requires a profile it's the second I'm uninstalling anything company related from my phone. They can give me a company phone, or I will only access work related things from their laptop.
Happened twice to me, one time I got a company phone, the other, computer only.
And then some colleagues even paid out-of-pocket to upgrade their Android phones once IT dictated their OS were out of support. No way.
> making iOS windows
Baseless claims.
Long back Xiaomi Phones used to have soemthing like this. That one feature was how I migrated my in-laws to Smartphones from their Nokias.
The key content from the article;
Here's how you set it up: Head into Settings, tap Accessibility, scroll down to the General section at the very bottom, and tap Assistive Access. Now, tap Set Up Assistive Access, then Continue. It will then ask you to select your preferred appearance: rows or a grid. I suggest choosing a grid. This is how you get those super-large tiles. Now the OS will ask you to select allowed apps—tap the green plus icon next to the apps you want to allow.
Simplify the iPhone home screen with large icons for kids or seniors:
Settings > Accessibility > General section at the very bottom > Assistive Access
I completely understand why Apple and Google removed the buttons (gotta maximize that screen real estate), but the affordance for an obvious home/reset button is great for some people.
It was more of design decision than practical one. My phone has a taller screen than 16:9 so when I watch videos there are black bars on the sides anyway - although my previous phone had aspect ratio perfectly matching the cinema one, making movies truly full-screen (minus rounded corners and the front camera). When I'm doing literally anything else, the buttons are displayed on the bottom of the screen. Some of my friends use gestures and actually that does give them extra screen space, but IMO gestures are less convenient and totally not worth it.
But when you show this on a demo it does look neat, especially with a game.
Give me back physical buttons please.
Does this do anything else ? Or make the app list when you go fully right different ?
I get that the internet is an addictive scary place with lots of content potentially dangerous to a young person.
But why would you care if your child took a selfie? That seems pretty draconian.
I guess point and shoot cameras also had those mirrors back then.
Glad to know that kids rediscovered camera selfies.
https://www.theverge.com/tech/907670/insta360-snap-usb-c-mag...
Second screen: provided by USB-C screencast and accessibility settings for to support touch. Image of device: https://platform.theverge.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/202...
Its draconian not because selfies are a fundamental need, but because they seem harmless. Rules should be justifiable.
> Come September, he will have to walk across town to school on his own. But if he's going to be walking around out in the world without me, then a tracking tag won't cut it. He is far too young to have unfettered access to the internet and social media platforms, but what if he gets lost? A classic Nokia, supplying just texts and calls, won't come to his aid. Maps and satnav require a web connection.
What if he gets lost? With a classic Nokia, he could still call someone and get help. Or, he might (heaven forbid) just need to ask someone for help. Or walk around until he remembers where he is. These are all good skills to learn.
The kid will grow up to almost always be able to contact most any human in the world. Knowing how and when to do that is probably going to be a more useful skill.
0: https://imprintnews.org/top-stories/is-it-a-crime-to-let-you...
Side note: As above article states, after this arrest SB110 was passed to specifically outline what is reasonable for this situation.
When making claims like this, please remember that this is a very international group of people and scope your point appropriately: "has become highly stigmatized in the US"
This is not a problem in large parts of Europe (can't comment about elsewhere). The reason this scoping is important is because the solutions are different for "this is a problem in all of society" compared to "this is a problem in the US".
(which is generally a no-no unless you're invited to)
On the internet is fine, but I've been to places around the world where a comment like that would result in black eyes, missing teeth, etc.
Knocking out someones teeth would necessitate filing charges
Anyway, I don't want to derail the conversation too much, this is a very interesting topic but it is off-topic.
If you want to keep talking about it send me an email! Info on my profile :).
He walked home by himself - maybe 500 meters… For us Europeans it was nothing to notice really, but the Americans were absolutely shocked.
America is big, and parts of it can be very different.
That distance for a walk should be seen as fine by most Americans at that age. Although, I find it’s rare that we socialize much with people that close. Those would be neighbors and neighbors aren’t frequently socializing to this degree.
You’re probably right that only in the US do people freak out over unaccompanied kids, but I wouldn’t say that’s true of most of the country.
I see plenty of 11 year olds in the US without any parental supervision while in public.
I mean kids get jobs at 12?
I was very surprised of this by my own kids find workarounds like l33t hackers. Apple's restrictions are a joke. The app store is full of things they can mess with. My daughter mentioned some way to get around screen time.
I've ended up just taking the iPads away.
They didn’t give me one.
I ended up finding a way to get my own through a more apathetic adult who I could pay cash to cover my bill (only an extra $10/month on a family plan).
I certainly am not telling you to just cave in, but perhaps this story can be a reminder that technology you control is potentially better than technology you don’t.
It’s a bit more nuanced than “one can get around the rules.
So yeah, they're basically saying "one can get around the rules" and nothing more than that. Therefore, there is no argument here, just a truism.
>generally speaking
I felt like I couched and prefaced enough that somebody wouldn’t read this and go “this guy thinks you literally can’t ban teens from anything ever,” which is a ridiculous stance that no reasonable person would hold. I’ll be more explicit in the future.
Wholesale banning teens from screens is generally highly ineffective, like many but not all things people try to prohibit at that age. It leads to their seeking it elsewhere, perhaps in less safe environments and certainly with less guidance. It also means they won’t communicate about it with their parents, which has a lot of bad secondary effects.
Personally, if my kid experiences or witnesses something disturbing (or illegal/potentially dangerous) when they are young, I want to make sure the lines of communication stay open between us so I can help - or at least help them process it - when they need me.
TL;DR: banning smartphones when they can easily access them elsewhere is almost certainly going to end in a net negative. I am not saying we can’t ban anything. That is a ridiculous interpretation of my comment. I hope this clears that up for you.
All you can do is nudge and try not to worry too much. It's certain there are other influences in their life you don't know about.
The most positive thing I read was that the kids are spending less time on social media in front of adults (like at the dinner table) because they're not supposed to be on social media.
But most of the parents in the article I read believed their kids had circumvented the ban somehow. Their problem now was that the kids' social media use was entirely hidden from them and they had no way to monitor it or even bring it up with their kids. The kids didn't want to admit to using social media at all.
None of this should be very surprising for any of us who remember back into childhood. Circumventing the restrictions was a game with its own reward. I had friends who were finding ways to get around the school's internet controls for the fun of doing it, not because it blocked any sites they wanted to use.
But the staff lists were public, and I had the default password. So I set up a script to turn the lists of names of teachers, librarians, janitors, etc. into usernames, and then tried to login with all of them. Turns out, most support staff, especially custodians, hadn't changed their passwords. (I'm guessing their jobs didn't involve much computer use). With a list of a couple dozen working accounts, I'd mete out 1 or 2 at a time to my friends, and we had teacher-level access for the rest of our time there. Don't remember using it for much, maybe showing my friends a youtube video during lunch or something.
Reddit, YouTube, Discord, and even Hacker News qualify as social sites. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to start providing ID to log in to everything.
If you think these imaginary laws would only apply to Facebook and TikTok, you must have missed all of the discussion where they've been extended to many more sites with social features. Goodbye privacy!
We can literally write "these laws apply only apply to Facebook and TikTok" into the laws.
Or base it on sites that have advertising. Products/services that are targeted to minors shouldn't be permitted to have advertisements anyway.
I don't find "We've done a bad job with X so we should abandon X rather than attempting to do X better" to be a compelling argument on its own.
I don’t find it useful to imagine laws like this. This isn’t what happens in real law making.
I’m talking about real, actual laws that are getting passed.
It’s not going to be perfectly targeted at websites you don’t use while leaving everything you like free, open, and privacy preserving.
It’s really important that we’re being realistic and honest about this. Inviting bad laws into the internet with fantasies about how they’ll be carefully scoped and limited to other websites is not realistic.
It applies solely to Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, ByteDance, Meta and Microsoft.
Imagining that these laws will be precisely written to avoid any services you like is a dangerous fallacy. That's how people rationalize bad laws.
Remember when all of the surveillance laws were only going to target the terrorists? Look how far that drifted.
Of course, this says nothing about the many kids who will be hurt by being denied access to social media, such as the many gay or trans kids living in conservative families that found some solace in online communities that would accept the real selves they otherwise have to hide.
Excellent education
I still need some smartphone for work. Got the smallest one possible so at least games aren't really fun.
In this case, seems pretty topical to just take the phone away entirely for a few days.
Not Dad fiddling with the settings, but instead Dad teaching a lesson about respecting the rules, and doing what you said you would do (children agree to obey the time limits in order to have access to the device).
How Dad should teach the lesson varies by family and by child.
I was candid with my kids about what I did in my youth, I was also honest with them about how terrible the tech was. They also got unfettered access to it (tech), and there were lots of conversations and consequences around its (mis)use.
Given the history of "abstinence only" sex ed, and "just say no" drug campaigns, and their massive failures; just not letting them have it seemed like it was going to create the problems that many are looking to avoid.
As they have moved into adulthood they have taken those lessons to heart, and are now the ones who complain about their peers and their abuses of social media and inability to self moderate. These same conversations continue now, with the added topic of AI -
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/assistive-access-iphon...
Going to go and give my mum a call now!
I'm not holding my breath. I plan on eye surgery.
Presbyopia: https://www.aoa.org/healthy-eyes/eye-health-for-life/adult-v...
Affected world population: "Whereas the presbyopic population is expected to increase from approximately 2.1 billion people currently2 to more than 4 billion people in 2050 (approximately 40% of the world’s population)3"
https://presbyopia.worldcouncilofoptometry.info/standardofca...
Lots of neat features hiding beneath the surface!
No they don't require a network at all. The only drawback if there is no network is that the initial finding of the position takes longer. And maps can be downloaded so that they are available offline.
GPS receiver have been working without a "web connection" for ages (e.g. Garmins outdoor devices).
I use my smartphone in "airplane" mode but GPS enabled when hiking. No problems whatsoever.
It would break the anxiety barrier of having to finagle with a bunch of different settings which exists for a lot of people believe it or not.Or Apple could just make it easier to implement these types of features much easier.
Plus when my kids lose it in a bag somewhere I can use find my instead of wasting an hour digging around.
> Come September, he will have to walk across town to school on his own.
*THE HORROR*
> But if he's going to be walking around out in the world without me, then a tracking tag won't cut it.
Uhhhhhhhhh. The way this is stated so plainly as if it were self-evident fact is telling. The author longs for the umbilical cord.
> but what if he gets lost?
What if he learns a life lesson, navigation and/or some form of self-reliance or independence?
I just... no wonder Kids Today are so cooked.
There's a lot of movement in games over the past 5-10 years, so there's a lot more visibility into a11y there, but in general that industry still has catching up to do. What you are seeing is higher interest and velocity there, and given some time they'll definitely catch up with the slower iteration cycles in mobile and web a11y, but I guarantee you the story is much richer on the web (in particular) than it is in games.
The perfect dumb phone is just a dumb phone. (Bonus, they're an order of magnitude cheaper than a decent smartphone).
I have no clue how things are actually structured at Apple, though. But I’m sure at this level of product maturity, there’s going to be internal struggles between user friendliness and profitability.
1. Call mom, 2. Call dad. 3. Call Auntie.
These kid's phones were very common, inexpensive and worked great.
Still a touch screen, those aren't always the best for kids to tap away furiously on.
> what if he gets lost?
Then he can look at street signs, ask someone nearby for directions, or (and this is an option I didn't have as a kid)... call someone. On the phone. That he has.
Comaps sure doesn't.
Very odd take given that you can block access to safari with iOS screen time as well...
Kids have learned to walk places on their own without maps or satnav or tracking for hundreds of thousands of years. I believe everyone would benefit from that continuing. We don't teach kids that the only way to do arithmetic is with a calculator... they learn first, then get a tool that can support what they already know. Why do we think we should do it differently here, and train this learned helplessness without a phone glued to your hand. I suspect a lot of this is projection of the parents' own discomfort with being away from their phone.
Parenting is hard. Parenting when everything is changing so quickly is very difficult.
Parenting is also a strictly optional hard-mode that you choose to switch on knowing full well there's an 18 year cooldown before you can switch it off again.
So, Find My is invaluable for locating it again.
Whatsapp, google maps, calls, sms. No browser, no store, no bullshit. Kids dont need more, if parents dont want to ruin (part of) their childhood. No need for restrictive apple ecosystem neither.
My guess is that its a bad look for PR to essentially say that a feature designed for disability assistance = children.
All of those have significant roots in accessibility for people with disabilities. I guarantee you that the people who invented them would be thrilled to see them have widespread adoption for all populations.
If something finds use in addition to its use for disability amelioration, it becomes more widespread and normalized. When it's wider spread and normalized, it becomes easier for people with disabilities to know it's available and to use it without stigma.
So no, you've got it entirely backwards I'm afraid. We do not think about assistive technology as something for people with disabilities. We think about it as something that helps people, and if it helps more people, even better.